As part of my due diligence on bringing my MU2 to Europe for 4+ months, I have been trying to figure out how to actually execute an IFR flight in Europe. The actual mundane mechanical process of planning a flight. After spending the better part of today with autorouter and Rocket Route (trial period) tools, I have come to the conclusion that I am fundamentally incapable of handling this on my own. I was unable to plan even a single flight with any confidence. And this doesn’t cover all the non flight plan issues such as parking, handling, customs, etc.
So I am thinking that for the relatively few trips I am taking, perhaps it would be worthwhile to PAY someone to set up my flights, like a dispatch office. I say when, from where to where, and who. They file my flight plan, find out and tell me ALL the fees (enroute, terminal, IAP, landing, parking, handling, etc), figure out fuel, get PPR/PNR, customs, get me charts/plates, know the local secrets, etc. That way I can be JUST the pilot like any charter pilot with a pro dispatch office. It would be ideal if the service provided feedback on how to make the flight more economical, such as suggesting alternative airports that cost less when appropriate, or ways to avoid handling/services I don’t need, and so forth.
So now the question is, does such a service exist, who are they, does it work well to use them, and is it reasonable enough cost? Should I ask this elsewhere?
The alternative to a professional dispatch would be to hire someone to teach me how to do this. That is, show me the way to do it on my own in a reasonable amount of time and effort. An experience IFR instructor savvy in the ways of European IFR would be an example instructor.
I am also very willing to take a European copilot with me if the cost of that is reasonable. I sometimes wonder if there aren’t those pilots who would fly with me and provide help and guidance for the experience themselves.
To scale the effort here, I plan on taking about 10 Europe trips while I am there, using a home base of, say, EGNE. They are tentatively:
Aug 10-16: Atlantic crossing east
Sep 10-11: Lille
Sep 16-18: Oslo
Sep 28-Oct 2: Munich and/or Berlin
Oct 14-16: Lausanne
Oct 28-30: Dublin
Nov 9-13: Venice and/or Florence
Dec 8-15: Barcelona, Madrid, Gibraltar, and/or Lisbon
Dec 16-20: Atlantic crossing west
There may be 2 or 3 more added, depends on what we want to do. If there is a fly in somewhere, I would make some effort to attend as well. Notice how the destinations get more southern as we get closer to the end of the year :-).
Thanks for any input you can give.
Mike C.
Hi Mike,
I think Rocket route has something for dispatch. I saw some advertisement on their mailing list. You should ask them what they do and cost…
It will not be hard to find a pilot who has some experience of European flying to share some flight with you.
I’m doing that for my customers, and like you, they mostly flying south ;-)
Romain
This is a great idea. At first I thought – again – that you worry a bit too much, but then caught myself and thought – what would I do if I wanted to fly in the US, and I would definitely fly with an instructor or experienced pilot until I were comfortable. I would guess you will be comfortable after 2-3 flights (so instead of saying you worry too much I will say you are too pessimistic :-) )
I recommend you find either an experienced private IFR pilot, or choose your instructor very carefully. Most IFR instructors in the UK fall in two camps – those who only ever instructed after minimum experience, and (current or retired) commercial pilots which only ever flew into large airports with flights planned by an Ops department. There are very few who know how to do the kind of flights you do from scratch, because the air taxi / low end piston and turbine ad-hoc charter business died a long time ago in Europe, If it ever existed at all. None of the instructors AND examiners I flew with bad any idea about eurocontrol routing.
Hello!
mciholas wrote:
So now the question is, does such a service exist, who are they, does it work well to use them, and is it reasonable enough cost?
There are plenty of these service providers in Europe. My personal experience is limited to those two:
http://www.interflight-services.de/en/2_Home.php
http://www.fpc-world.com/en/index.php
I can recommend both of them. There are price lists on their websites, however I am certain that a package price for the whole round trip can easily be negotiated.
An experienced co-pilot who is familiar with flight preparation in Europe would be the better option of course. I would recommend a retired business pilot, but expect to pay between 300-500 Euros per day plus traveling expenses.
Regards,
Max
…and make sure they know how to do their own plans. All busness pilots I know – not a representative sample, I must add – are very capable pilots comfortable flying into strange places at short notice, but have no idea about the flight planning bit.
I met a pilot at a party (yeah I do that a lot 
) who worked for Jeppesen and his job was in their flight briefing division. This is one of Jepp’s less known (in GA) functions. Their pricing starts at a few hundred $ a month, according to how much you want. They will go as far as booking hotels and ground transport.
IMHO one doesn’t need this for GA in Europe but I can see why a busy bizjet pilot will use it because he often has to fly to some god forsaken dump at a very short notice, and Eurocontrol routings have until recently been a black art. Actually Jepp got really upset when the routing became generally easily possible some years ago, especially as anybody can do the rest of the job (booking hotels etc).
mciholas wrote:
So now the question is, does such a service exist, who are they, does it work well to use them, and is it reasonable enough cost? Should I ask this elsewhere?
Not for nothing but hasnt that been what Ive been saying all along? Call Rocket Route to discuss with them such a service. They helped me over the Atlantic and they are still helping me 3 yrs later with their 24 hr service line. No computer BS help chat line. If you know what I mean. They have a real person to help you along.
You really dont need a copilot. I fly everywhere IFR and it works great. I only do very local flying VFR in Hungary and Germany between EDMA (Munich area) and EDMS and EDMV. I have a VFR chart of Munich area due to Class C and mostly for vertical limits. If you do cancel IFR and go in VFR they expect you to go to VFR IAP those are not on IFR charts usually. But if you download the airport info from RR and have it on your I PAD or print it out there should be no problem. A great help fr me is the G600 cause it shows all sorts of boundaries.
It will be fun so dont worry. In Europe there are more rules than in the US tax code. Actually to the point nobody knows what is going on so unless its about somebody collecting a fee they dont want to be bothered. Think Govt employee.
Call me I have a US number. I will PM it to you.
C210_Flyer wrote:
You really dont need a copilot.
I would say: That depends. On how much spare time there is. In the States, after the business meeting one would call the FBO and tell him that departure will be in one hour. The “line boys” will tow the plane to the fuel pumps, refuel it, put some ice in the drinks cabinet, somebody will prepare your invoice and activate your flight plan. All you have to do on arrival is swipe your credit card and off you go. Not so in Europe. Take the fuel for example: Almost nowhere your plane will get refueled without somebody being present and signing that the correct fuel type is being used. In some places in Southern Europe (I only say: “Barcelona” and “Madrid” because those are included in the list above) it can take between one and two hours for the refueler to arrive at your plane after you (or your handling agent) call him. And another half hour to sort out the payment. Paying various fees at different stations may take another half hour. Do not expect to depart a place like Madrid Barajas in less than three hours after you arrive at the airport! This is where the co-pilot can really earn his money. While you do your stuff, he will look after everything concerning the plane and have it ready for your flight the moment you get off the taxi to the airport.
Hello Mike.
I can’t help you much as I don’t have the knowledge of the rest, however, if you are looking for a co-pilot I know a guy who is an I.R examiner and a very experience buzjet pilot. He flew pistons, turboprops and jets around Europe and to the Middle East. If you are interested please send me your details and \I will pass them on to him so you can talk.
Also, I have a friend who is a PPL + I.R who flew all over Europe, the USA and cross the Atlantic many times (including single engine aircraft, one was 15h non stop via the Azurs). I don’t think that he will be able to do all flights with you but might 1-2, again, if interested let me know and I will have a word and pass your details.
My email address is: ben_ ayalon at btinternet dot com.
Good luck
Edited to add:
My PPL I.R friend lives part time in St. Johns (Canada) so might be able to help you with the crossing too.
Cobalt wrote:
This is a great idea. At first I thought – again – that you worry a bit too much, but then caught myself and thought – what would I do if I wanted to fly in the US, and I would definitely fly with an instructor or experienced pilot until I were comfortable. I would guess you will be comfortable after 2-3 flights (so instead of saying you worry too much I will say you are too pessimistic :-) )
Most IFR instructors in the UK fall in two camps – those who only ever instructed after minimum experience, and (current or retired) commercial pilots which only ever flew into large airports with flights planned by an Ops department. There are very few who know how to do the kind of flights you do from scratch
Given the lack of instructor knowledge and experience in these matters, how does a private pilot learn to do practical IFR in Europe? The entire process, start to finish.
Mike C.
