In the USA the turbo-prop, or piston, pressurised crowd have the rule of thumb of using FL280 with a tailwind, and FL180 with a headwind. In my experience once you are below FL240 European ATC likes to vector you on endless detours, defeating the purpose of flying lower to avoid headwinds.
Below FL100 you might get the odd direct crossing through la France profonde, or in these examples where you are not interfering with jet metropolitan STAR/SID traffic, but it can be worse than FL180.
The benefit of piston IFR in Europe. You are the only one around, and ATC can hand out directs galore.
Back to my original question, just returned from Mali Losinj using the filed route that @Snoopy suggested. I was a bit concerned that they would ask me to climb to FL140 for BORDA. But in fact at GEN (Genoa) they sent me out to OZMIC which is on the way to INLOV and an excellent start to the approach. I got a bit of vectoring because there was someone in front of me doing the same approach.
The two flights both went very nicely. On the way out I got direct CHI (on the eastern side of Italy) before I even left French airspace. The return route was similar, a bunch of Directs that cut out most of the intermediate waypoints.
Thanks to everyone for your help.
That’s good to know. It seems to me that there’s often a small section of a route which doesn’t allow an FPL to validate.
Back before Autorouter I filed a FPL from Brest to LFFK with the BRIA at Nantes(that’s when they had one). Just before the flight I got a call to say it had been rejected.
I couldn’t figure out why until I noticed a little section where the R66 tranforms to the V30 between LENSU and KORER which was at FL115 whereas up to LENSU it was FL075 as it was after KORER. Only 26NM.🙂
It was previously validating, but not anymore… If I was flying this for real (and not doing it as a part of my IR self-studying), I’d probably ask NM to force through some route (or just file FL120 and then stop-climb), but as it stands, I can’t produce an IFR flight plan FL100 or below that validates in Autorouter. I think I could hack a route around the Bay of Biscay, but that would double the distance. :)
I’m not sure I am understanding correctly.
According to the French lower airspace map the A5 has a minimum F115 under Brest CTL 124.065 running from Nantes to the Spanish border.
Sadly the French map that I have does not show the border crossing point. It is the one you can download from the AIP. It fails each time I try to upload it here.
Skydemon shows the A5 as a dotted line to LOTEE.
Flying from Quimper or more usual Brest via the ROSPO SID BAGAD and LUTAS I have flown regularly IFR at FL90
I would have thought a DCT EPIXO should also work. I usually get a DCT from BAGAD or LUTAS to TIRAV approx same distance.
So I can’t see where and why it is not validating.
Except for the FL115 on the A5 towards LOTEE and of course that is not an IFR level and might need F130. And the only reason I can see that prevents it would be the D18A (don’t know why ot would) Lack of 2 way comms approaching LOTEE. I know EPIXO is not a problem at 4000ft talking.with Nantes. I can’t see why the FL200 minimum or the non validation in French airspace. Have you tried filing a IFR to LOTEE on Sofia? I have no current IFR charts for Spain which may help the Spanish airspace part.
OCAS IFR flight above 3000ft and in 2 way comms with ATS is possible in France but maybe it doesn’t validate through Eurocontrol.
I have never really investigated that.
I’ll be interested to see how you get on. Bon courage.
gallois wrote:
Do you think it’s the front end that wont validate or is it everywhere. For instance if you filed to IDRIK and then DCT, would it work from that?
It is the backend. You need to exit French airspace, and the exit point must be a designated point OR be part of an airway, previously most of the points north of Spain were validating for exit, now the validation fails and refers to AIP France ENR 4.4, Border crossing points (https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dvd/eAIP_10_AUG_2023/FRANCE/AIRAC-2023-08-10/html/eAIP/FR-ENR-4.4-fr-FR.html#ENR-4.4).
If you search for KORUL or LOTEE, for example, it now says “FRA LFFRANW (EX): FL195-660”, which is OK to enter/exit in Class C (FL200), but not below, so there are no routes IFR from/through north-western France FL100 or below anymore. And yes, I did check with IFPS NM, they couldn’t find anything either. :)
Do you think it’s the front end that wont validate or is it everywhere. For instance if you filed to IDRIK and then DCT, would it work from that?
I have never done it but I can’t find anything in French IFR regs that would stop it being possible except possibly the need for reporting points every 50nm minimum. But even that might no longer be necessary. We usually file through the BRIA at Bordeaux. The people there have always been very helpful at working with Eurocontrol to find ways round things.
