IMO if Vans want to stay in business they have to write to all builders who might have laser cut parts and simply ask them if they wish replacement non laser cut parts.
This will quickly give them an idea of the cost of replacement and where the parts are located.
From that they can quickly estimate the cost of either of recalling or simply sending out new parts. All at Vans cost.
There will be difficulties such as builders who have already built with the laser cut parts. Some may be happy others will need to agree some sort of solution.
I think we are way past this now. They have already done a survey.
I suspect they have already started the bankruptcy process. I’m certain the LCP customers will be left holding the bag for that issue. Now I’m wondering what will happen to the people that have made deposits on kits.
That will be very sad.
gallois wrote:
IMO if Vans want to stay in business they have to write to all builders who might have laser cut parts and simply ask them if they wish replacement non laser cut parts.
This will quickly give them an idea of the cost of replacement and where the parts are located.
From that they can quickly estimate the cost of either of recalling or simply sending out new parts. All at Vans cost.
Yep, they already did this. Sent every affected customer a link a few weeks ago. It listed your kits and asked you to tick off which parts you want replaced with punched parts. With a little time having passed they probably have a pretty good dataset for what it looks like, i.e. an awful lot.
Peter wrote:
I suspect the place was really sloppy, with shelves with stacks of parts all over the place and little segregation of different stock.
That would be my assumption. Both my kits had parts damaged and parts missing, which I believe is indicative of a sloppy culture. Some (not all) of the laser-cut parts look so bad that you almost cannot believe someone packed them into a crate without taking it to show their boss and saying “hey look at this crap, are we really sending it out the door?” Perhaps they did, and perhaps there was also a culture of not making a fuss.
The total lack of any QC or any traceability is what made a straightforward bad decision into something that’s killed the company.
These cultures start from the top, so the boss (not Van) leaving is probably a positive step. I’m pretty sceptical of turnaround specialists and insolvency practitioners in terms of the effect on customers. They only thing that’s certain going forward is that they will get paid.
An interesting additional situation is that Van’s also sells engines, propellers and avionics to kit customers. They get volume pricing from the manufacturers and pass some of the discount on. Typically you had to put 20% down with the balance due just before shipping, and there are people who have been waiting 12-18 months for engines. Now affected folks have enquired with Lycoming, and it seems Lycoming don’t take deposits from Van’s – just the whole lot on shipping – so those deposits are probably lost.
I’m going to give it until mid November (per his statement) and see what news emerges then, and if I can’t see a way to complete the aircraft then I’ll file a section 75 refund request with my credit card company on both kits.
Graham wrote:
then I’ll file a section 75 refund request with my credit card company on both kits.
@Graham, “good” for you if that works. Are you missing some kits, or are you “just” LCP affected?
As for myself, I happily ordered a new Thunderbolt engine thru Van’s February 1st, 2022, and had to pay a $9K deposit. Today, not only do I not have said engine, but I’m not sure I’ll ever see a cent of that money again.
Though the sum had been paid with a CC (Visa), I could not find any equivalent section 75 here in my waters…
Dan wrote:
Are you missing some kits, or are you “just” LCP affected?
I’m just LCP affected, two kits – empennage and wing. Empennage is mostly complete but will require significant rework if not starting over on some assemblies due LCPs. Wing is only just started, can’t advance further due to many LCPs but nothing entombed.
I probably contributed to the cash flow crisis because if the issue hadn’t have happened I’d have ordered my fuselage by now.
The crucial point that enables section 75 in this instance is that the kits received are not as described. Van’s sales materials describes the kits as pre-punched. I don’t know how common an equivalent to section 75 is in other countries, but it’s very useful in the UK and means that you’d be mad to make purchases of any significant size via a method other than a credit card.
As an aside, making these claims here in the UK is very hard IME, because the CC claim departments are highly trained to fob you off. You may have to sue. I have never actually succeeded.
I’ve made it work before, not particularly difficult. It’s different from an actual chargeback.
I’m only considering it because it may well become essentially impossible to complete the aeroplane in any reasonable timeframe.
Peter wrote:
As an aside, making these claims here in the UK is very hard IME, because the CC claim departments are highly trained to fob you off. You may have to sue. I have never actually succeeded.
I know of at least three people succeeding. They’ve contacted the appropriate CC companies and just filled out the forms (fairly basic ones).
If the goods/services were not provided, then I think you’ve got an easy case. CC company might object to the return of the deposit now, unless there was a clear lead time specified.
Yes, unspecified lead times could be a problem if looking to reclaim a deposit for a kit not delivered. You’re on much firmer ground with not as described and unfit for purpose.
Now I’m wondering what will happen to the people that have made deposits on kits.
Am not sure it could file Chapter 11. No steady cash flow to reorganise around, no asset base to support a debtor-in-possession credit facility (needs excellent commercial receivables as security). These operations function with deposits and deferred revenue models, and the depositors/unsecured creditors are in effect the unsecured creditors who vote the plan if they could successfully file Chapter 11.
