On the PA17 the annual takes two man-days. I do it with one or other of my co-owners. Sometimes there are more than two of us to do it, but the thing still takes the whole day – probably because more people = more chat.
Shortly after we do it I book the LAA inspector, he takes a couple of hours to look over it and then does the paperwork for another year’s permit to fly. His costs are not significant.
A 50hr takes very little time. Ground run (or do it after you fly), tail up, cowlings off, drain oil, clean plugs, refill oil, cowlings on.
The TB10 is with a CAMO and while I don’t follow the details closely (I think the best way to maintain a good relationship with the shop is for our one designated co-owner to handle it) I am quite satisfied that we get a decent job done. Certainly all work happens very quickly, the aeroplane is almost never grounded, and the bills are reasonable. Most other maintenance shops have relatively poor reputations in terms of long waiting times, everything costing a fortune, poor work, etc. so the main priority is maintaining the relationship with our current shop.
The CAMO do a 50hr while we wait (2 hours or so) and since we started using them maybe 6-7 years ago no annual has taken more than a week. By UK CAMO standards, I understand this is very good. What is also very good (and perhaps somewhat priceless) is that they can always fit us in when we need – we’ve never been told that they can’t do it now but perhaps in two or three weeks, which I understand is quite common. The shop has a good reputation but I don’t doubt that this is partially down to the excellent relationship that our co-owner responsible for maintenance matters has with them.
All that said, it irritates me that the PA17 is the one forced to display a placard informing occupants that ‘this aircraft has not been certified to an international standard’ – especially when it has, but just isn’t (in the UK) any more.
It might be more informative to make the TB10 display a placard saying ‘people who don’t fly in this aeroplane are paid to maintain it and the pilot does not have a complete knowledge of what they do or don’t do’. Maintenance-induced failure is a real risk when you don’t supervise the work yourself and we did have one potential nasty recently.
“Why did God create the white man? Because somebody has to pay retail”
One could say the same thing about owners of certain aircraft types in current production, too. Like anything where the TC holder owns all your avionics.
BeechBaby wrote:
a day may come when owner maintenance becomes norm
For (my guess would be) 50% of US certified and individually owned single engine planes, that is already close to the case. The work is done by the owner in cooperation with an A&P, one that is charging nowhere near $100/hr, or some other similar solution. As @Peter repeatedly points out the correlation of that 50% to owners having a hangar to work in is close to 100% 
As I have pointed out, there is zero correlation between running a business and holding an FAA A&P. A lot of work in the US is done as a community activity, with some money changing hands.
When I was a kid working on cars to get through school, a much older African American coworker and friend taught me (at that point as a skinny pasty-faced kid) a bit about being a mechanic and the business. One of his jokes was “Why did God create the white man? Because somebody has to pay retail” It’s probably tasteless to repeat it decades later but he was not a fool. I felt like Tom Sawyer
172driver wrote:
Going on our club fleet experience, that sounds about right.
I suppose we come full circle as to should we be paying this to keep our treasures in the sky? If we all kind of agree that these are reflective costs, we should consider the reason for them, apart from deliberately killing ourselves through non maintenance.
If you take the GA fatality rates, globally, link to major causes, link to ‘was there anything actually wrong with the aeroplane that was causal to the crash’, then the argument could be driven to manufacturers liability clauses. I know @silvaire has touched on this a few times. As has Mike Busch. It is not as if the overall fatality rate is in full decline.
It will only be a discussion as far as certified aircraft go, however, a day may come when owner maintenance becomes norm. Or you bring in the local car mechanic to change the pesky vacuum pump.
BeechBaby wrote:
1. 32 hours
2. 36 hours
3. 40 hours.A good average of £60.00 per hour labour rate plus parts
Going on our club fleet experience, that sounds about right. Perhaps a touch less for #1, more for something like a C210, but the ballpark is correct. Only the labor rate is more round here (USD 100-115), but hey, it’s California where we all pay sunshine tax.
Peter wrote:
It is very rare to suddenly find a load of corrosion, which wasn’t there at all a year before.
Thats a bit like saying you should have noticed the crack underneath the exhaust, or the crack at the base of the cylinder block. Not quite that simple nor straightforward. When did you last lift the co-pilot seat and floorboards?
You then fall under the spell of the shop ordering parts, plus shipping, with no real concern, nor time admittedly, for shopping around for deals. Also that then rules out picking up good quality after market parts, or used with cert.
That is largely mismanagement of maintenance, because at each annual one is supposed to spot stuff like that creeping up on you, and then make a note of ordering any required parts in good time. Sometimes items are found on the Annual which have to get done at the first 50hr check, because you can’t get the parts fast enough – I have a few right now.
It is very rare to suddenly find a load of corrosion, which wasn’t there at all a year before.
zuutroy wrote:
What do people view, more or less, as a reasonable number of man hours for a decent quality annual for:Fixed gear and prop SEP
Fixed gear VP SEP
Retractable VP SEP
What an interesting question! I will note down the number of hours I take inspecting and doing all that stuff next time.
However, it isn’t quite comparable. I have all those “check items” on the list which are mandatory for the annual/100h/50h respectively, and although it’s quite extensive, I do also check whether I do find anything else. If something’s “calling” I take it on a list and consider how and when to replace it (if it’s something non-critical). So I don’t just tick boxes but take a lot more time for really getting inside that thing so that I may possibly anticipate any upcoming item.
And so far I don’t do the paperwork
PS: I think 4 hours more for CS prop is too much. Work to be done on blades isn’t so much different and the “magic” parts turning a fixed prop into a CS prop will most probably be sent to a shop and done there if an overhaul was necessary. 4 hours more for retractable gear might be o.k., but I think it’s rather less. Because a fixed gear also has parts to check or lube. I don’t think that I needed 4 hours for the gear (only labour, not the exciting time about how does this work and where’s that connected and how). However, every now and then there might be some major work on the gear, so an average of +4 hours might fit
The screw up factor are the unknown, unknowns. We can plan AD compliance, SB, upgrades we planned, TBO, etc. What we cannot do is find corrosion on the spar area under the co pilot seat. Corrosion in the tail section. Rusted control wires. Tyres, brake discs and pads. I could go on…
You then fall under the spell of the shop ordering parts, plus shipping, with no real concern, nor time admittedly, for shopping around for deals. Also that then rules out picking up good quality after market parts, or used with cert.
You are now a feather in the wind financially.
Am with @BeechBaby those look quite realistic. Lots more bits and pieces come off at the annual and have to be put back together. You then have to factor in how your maintenance plan will treat either regulatory or Manufacturer time in service intervals.
Items that might not get done in a pencil whip annual for a simple SEP:
1. Clean and re pack wheel bearings
2. Clean and inspect engine oil pump filter
3. Flight control lubrication and rigging check
4. Fuel system items
5. Pitot static and encoder check
6. Hose condition check
Obviously as the type becomes more complex and has specific quirks for the type, the list may get longer.
