FWIW this was in Flight Training News; a UK FTO newspaper. It comes from Boeing, apparently. So like all vested-interest forecasts it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt
I’m perhaps too old at 37 and too far down my career path to make it worthwhile
Probably not; some previous posts in past threads. I know a pilot older than that who is now doing her CPL/IR… though a woman is probably at an advantage in the current market.
May previous threads on going to the airlines – example.
I thought the “scheme” was more like this: Ryanair (or whoever) don’t hire pilots. They hire the service from another or several other companies. That other company(s) don’t hire pilots either, not on permanent basis, there’s no need to, they are not an airline company. They just hire pilots in on short terms, short enough to not count as employment. Or is this completely wrong?
I don’t know the detail, but the situation as I understand it is that new pilots are not employees of Ryanair.
Graham wrote:
@Dave_Phillips – do you work for more than one ‘customer’ then?
Graham, yes. I’m Safety & Compliance chap for a helicopter AOC and also undertake expert witness work through a well known company operating in that part of the industry.
There is no pilot shortage in Europe! A shortage would mean that all applicants for a job position would be hired on and still not all positions could be filled. It’s coming close to this in the US – but the spots at the major carriers are still very competitive, so there’s not even a shortage thete.
The reality in Europe is far from this: It’s propaganda to get as many young people as possible to sign up for profit oriented flight schools. Once finished they compete for jobs thus driving down terms and conditions.
There’s lots of money to be made here.
1) by supplying the basic training up to MPL/CPL MEP IR with ATPL theory credit (50-150+ k Euro). Note: most of the theory is now distance learning = clicking through the multiple choice question banks. Transfer of knowledge? Not so much!
2) by screening applicants for airlines (charging the airline a fee per candidate). Some of these assessment centers conduct the exact same screening (pc tests etc..) for different airlines, but still make candidates attend separately for each airline (at the candidates own expense). A friend is currently undergoing the identical assessment for two different airlines, requiring him to fly to there and back, pay hotels etc.. 4 times for one day of attendance each.
When I did my screenings for the airlines they actually sent me a letter with an invitation along with tickets and hotel bookings…
3) By offsetting the training cost to the candidates via different means. Some airlines buy new aircraft and negotiate N number of typeratings into the deal. They then charge new hires the equivalent market rate of this typerating. It is either paid flat out directly, or a bond is in place, where the new hire pays e.g. a 30k Euro security deposit. If he leaves before a contracted number of years, the money is gone. Some airlines only pay a reduced salary in the first few years and incur „chargebacks“ for the training etc…
While my airline bonded me for training cost it did not involve any payment/deposit etc… from my part. In case of redundancy etc… there was no risk to forfeit any money. There was also no reduced paygrade.
4) Turn the cost into a profit. Offer copilots to pay to sit in the right hand seat of a 737 for a year (you get the discounted airline hotel rate for the layover…). It’s called pay2fly, and it happens, also in Europe.
Some airlines have changed their contracts to low salaries for new hires, promising higher salaries after many years of service (this „procedure“ ascertains enough time to actively manage that nobody ever reaches these payscales in the future). It used to be the „B“ scale, at some airlines they’ve reached C, D or E scales. The same with pensions – all changed from defined benefit to defined contribution. If the airline cancels a collective agreement regulating the company pension they can use these financial reserves for other means (dividends, actually).
The dayjob at an airline is to fly LNAV/VNAV on flightdirector/autopilot and ILS without bending any metal (plastic, nowadays). Sure why not do some raw data flying after 12 hours through the night into a major airport – be my guest and salute to the chiefpilot while explaining wtf you were thinking overloading the pilot monitoring and busting a level/exceeding a flap limit speed/missing a crucial atc call etc… “it’s in the manual guys, automation policy, bla bla bla”. In over 6000 hours I haven’t flown anything involving NDB or VOR. However, when applying for an airline, the standard sim screening is flying some 320 or 737, completely raw data, into some NDB holding/approach/airwork. Couldn’t be further from what one does on the actual job. Which leads me to
5) airline job test preparation. A huge market of software for aptitude tests, sim screening prep, interview prep etc..
Sarcasm: Maybe in the future passengers will get paid to sit in the back while the crew pays to “gain experience” – I know, not funny ;)
It’s not all bad (emphasis on “some airlines” written above), there are still a few airlines left with very good working conditions. My observation in the last years has been that many pilots are worried and frustrated, primarily not because of salaries but more because of increased workload, social security (health issues) and overall increasing pressure at work. More BS, less € so to say.
I have very happy colleagues that worked at the “harp” and they still smile when they eat their crewmeals and drink free water and soda on the job…nice, but also sad in a way.
We haven’t even touched the topic of what 4 sectors with minimum turn around for 20+ days a month at any given ever changing time of day and night does to your body and social/family life over the years. Oh, and if your airline goes bust you’ll find yourself competing at passing aforementioned computer clicking against young flight school finishers – your experience doesn’t really count much. Knowing this there should be a shortage, but there isn’t.
Snoopy suggest you spend time as an investment bank associate to understand how cushy and relaxed the FO job is :)
RobertL18C wrote:
Snoopy suggest you spend time as an investment bank associate to understand how cushy and relaxed the FO job is :)
The difference is an investment bank associate is paid much more than a FO.
An investment bank associate also needs to be much brighter than an FO. Doesn’t mean there aren’t FO’s just as bright, but it is not a requirement.
Apple and oranges, people. I’ve tried to teach ‘investment bankers’ how to fly and it hasn’t been pretty. I think it is a bit simplistic to say that a banker has to be much brighter than an FO.
Agree with Dave_Phillips!
Getting back on topic in the last 24 months there has been benign hiring conditions – a fATPL can get an FO job, bonded, for a low investment in the type rating (£5-10k), as against the norm of £25-30k. As an FO with flight pay, revenue pre tax of around EUR80k, no B scales, no pay2fly, etc.
Within 3 years eligible for command or switch from lo-cost to flag carrier. Command producing around 50% bump in pre tax.
A further 3-5 years eligible to switch to long haul in the Far East or Middle East, European base and 50%-100% bump in compensation.
…or if lifestyle suits switch to long haul corporate.
This accelerated career path has never been experienced in the industry. I certainly can think of several kids who come from families in ‘trade’, gas fitters, electricians, reaching command in their mid 20’s. The modern hiring practices have ensured the industry is modernised and the pay back is a reasonable proposition.
