dutch_flyer wrote:
While I’d certainly agree you need a capable airplane to fly IFR, the reality of Northern Europe is lots of low-level cloud for a lot of the year. For a large percentage of the time the IR is useful for getting to sun on top and back down again.
Indeed, a common weather situation in winter is a high with a thin cloud cover in a low inversion and clear skies above. You can climb and descend through it without having to worry about ice.
Ok great, I understand the benefit of doing the IR(R) first and then getting experience flying IFR around the UK.
Is the benefit of getting the full IR just that we can use it to fly IFR in Europe?
I’m concerned about what Peter said about the limitations of flying IFR in Europe because of altitude. Does that mean that it wouldn’t be possible to fly a 172 to Europe if there was IMC somewhere along the route?
Amateurish wrote:
I’m concerned about what Peter said about the limitations of flying IFR in Europe because of altitude. Does that mean that it wouldn’t be possible to fly a 172 to Europe if there was IMC somewhere along the route?
No, it means that in SOME places you need to climb fairly high just stay in the airway (min FL is fairly high).
Weather-wise… For some weather even the big jets stay on the ground or divert, so not much of a problem.
In some cases having de-icing would really help and improve your dispatch rate significantly as well as oxygen (can be portable, see Peter’s website) and having a slightly fast plane helps (even Piper Arrow vs 172 is an improvment).
Otherwise, all OK.
In short – get some IR and fly some plane! :)
I had my first PIC IFR OCAS flight to Oxford a week ago in real clouds – it really helps if you could just say “so what?” to yourself and then go.
Amateurish wrote:
Is the benefit of getting the full IR just that we can use it to fly IFR in Europe?
Not only that. In the UK the IR(R) has restrictions on what airspace you can fly in and what weather minima apply for takeoff and landing. But most UK pilots who don’t fly abroad find that the IR(R) is sufficient.
I’m concerned about what Peter said about the limitations of flying IFR in Europe because of altitude. Does that mean that it wouldn’t be possible to fly a 172 to Europe if there was IMC somewhere along the route?
It is absolutely possible! I’ve done it with both C172’s and PA28’s lots of times. But of course the higher you can fly the easier it gets. You usually don’t want to be in the muck when you fly enroute. If the temperature is below zero it exposes you to ice, which can be quite a limiting factor during part of the year. Also it’s no fun, particularly not for pax.
Does that mean that it wouldn’t be possible to fly a 172 to Europe if there was IMC somewhere along the route?
I fly C172 all day along in IMC, the 180hp is fine for IFR at FL80, it does the same as non-FIKI NA SR22 without oxygen in weather, zero differences, it’s just slow, useful load is crap and ugly on the ramp but it can handle weather
Going to Alps you will find it’s limited but no one does SEP IFR cruise there in IMC, at least not in the set of pilots who are still alive with us, people fly VMC IFR in tha corner, if you want more reassurance many pilots have died there in IMC with piston twins, TB20, SR22, Mooneys & Bonanzas than pilots in C172 
I fly C172 all day along in IMC, the 180hp is fine for IFR at FL80, it does the same as non-FIKI NA SR22 without oxygen in weather, zero differences, it’s just slow, useful load is crap and ugly on the ramp but it can handle weather
Nothing crap with the 1000Ibs of useful load in the C172 I fly 😉
Is the benefit of getting the full IR just that we can use it to fly IFR in Europe?
The main benefits of the full IR, compared to VFR or the IMCR, are these:
In the Eurocontrol system (which is what runs it in Europe, and what UK PPLs know using the misleading term “airways”) you get a presumed whole-route clearance. So, let’s say you fly Shoreham to Colmar (in France). You depart Shoreham, Class G, no radar, so no real clearance to do anything, then you transfer to London Control and they clear you into controlled airspace (CAS) and you sit in CAS all the way to the Colmar instrument approach (IAP). ATC all the way just assist you along, no more clearances are needed, there is basically no hassle, and ATC will not say you must now stop because you aren’t cleared into X (there are exceptions to that but few, and not relevant to this). So while it can be said that in VFR (or IMCR flight which is same as VFR in terms of begging for clearances) ATC work against you by default, with IFR in CAS they work for you by default. ATC won’t like this description, and in some countries VFR is much smoother than in others, for example France is much smoother than the UK where ATC is basically broken into little fiefdoms, but it is basically what happens; under VFR the default is NO clearance.
You are allowed to climb as high as you need to get above wx, terrain, etc, limited only by aircraft performance. You often can’t do this under VFR. In the UK you have lots of Class A where VFR is illegal, in much of NE France VFR is banned above FL120, and there are other gotchas which mean som detailed planning is needed for longer VFR trips.
Some VFR routes are horrible e.g. Shoreham to Oban, where the most obvious route involves the notorious and dangerous Manchester-Liverpool low level corridor, 1300ft max, a missile alley with half the traffic having transponders off, you get busted at 1400ft, and that’s before you get onto Barton going for the world record in ATZ bust MORs. Under IFR, you get into CAS around CPT and then sit there in peace, FL090/100, all the way to Scotland.
The bottom line: a low workload flight, maximum safety, climb options to avoid icing, and a high quality ATC service more or less everywhere in Europe, including Albania Well, except where they can’t speak English 
A C172 has a ceiling of about FL120 so is fine for IFR in Europe, in reasonably decent wx.
The guy I had from Tirana control sounded awfully nice 😆
Yes; ATC ELP issues are the worst in Spain and France, and to a lesser extent in Italy. The “Balkans” are pretty good. But because under IFR you don’t need to be constantly begging for clearances, it doesn’t matter if somebody is not replying; you just fly the filed route and try to raise the next unit. Under VFR, you may get busted; and definitely so in the UK, especially as UK does not operate the ICAO requirement that once cleared into CAS, ATC is required to clear you into adjoining CAS further down the route (e.g. Bournemouth → Solent, they can and do simply refuse).
I suggest an IR to everybody who can tick the other boxes (good VFR pilot, a brain for “techy” challenges, and money ) but not too soon after the PPL.
Peter wrote:
… good VFR pilot, …
Just curious … which attributes do you mean?
