I do not argue the pros and or cons of the EIR and IMO most will either drop the IR or continue to the BIR depending on how useful or not they found the EIR.
My argument was that many here fly VFR on Top for longer journeys across France using the airway system. It was and still is strictly VFR and despite what @Ibra says entering clouds is illegal unless you are in a glider, but that’s a modern phenomena here. Or if you get into trouble and need help.
So when I fly VFR on top from say LFFK to LFRQ (Quimper) I need a hole to pass through at this end to remain VMC, there also has to be an appropriate hole near Quimper where I can descend to in VMC to make a VFR approach and landing.
With the EIR did not need the hole at either end and or even en route, entering IMC is legal.
I do not hold an EIR, but I do believe it is necessary to file an FPL, whereas VFR on Top does not need one.
In France before the EIR came out we already had a National IR and then about a year later,the CBIR came along and anyone who wanted a bit more flexibility took one of those.
The EIR didn’t really get a look in and will depend on what will eventually be involved with the BIR, whether or not there will be a large take up or not.
Our DTO has just been audited by the DGAC and although there were many positive points, there were also points where we needed to be careful, regulation wise. These were small points mainly hovering around insurance and how liable the club president could be if certain areas were not tightened up.
My argument was that many here fly VFR on Top for longer journeys across France using the airway system. It was and still is strictly VFR
Anyone who has done that kind of VFR flying over 300nm would be able confirm that they tend to get closer than 1kft to clouds with visibility less than 5km (as they are flying using modern AI & VOR/GPS instead of horizon, maps & clocks), just ask anyone who does it if they have lost cloud separation at some point as I was not in the cockpit, what matters is being smart about it 
I would be worried when pilots doing challenging long cross-country missions under VFR claim they are virgins when it comes to flying into clouds, I get more peace of mind when the guy confirms he can read weather, fly inside clouds for more than 2min and can fly an ILS if he has to (after all he is betting his life on that)
What you can’t do with that kind of VFR is:
- Land in conditions under SVFR minima in controlled zones
- Enter Charlie in Nice or Alpha in Paris in 5kft-9kft band (stack holding altitudes)
- Fly VFR in General Delta above FL120 in lot of places, you tend to stay in FL65-FL120 Airways
I am planning if weather allows to go VFR on Top for a flight of 2 hours each way, on airways today. At the moment there is no hole this end for me to fly through so I may have to stay low for a while, whilst hoping one appears.
I do hold an SEIR but the aircraft is not equipped for IFR. Regarding, VMC, I will follow the regulations on distance from cloud for the airspace I enter.
And as I wrote my last post, a hole has suddenly appeared. I now need to check out if there is likely to be a hole the other end.
Whatever your “hole situation”, never go down bellow 1kft to nearest obstacle, you will be just fine (of you can keep wings level)
PS: good VFR holes needs to be free of obstacles and 3km wide to allow safe VMC descente in helicopters, in fixed wings you need to factor turn radius and steep manœuvring at 45deg, an 8km wide hole is my conservative estimate to stay VMC (you can do like me fly wing level on your AI via descent toward some VOR/GPS fix in some safe area that is free of obstacles untill your min safe altitude rather than freestyle random sh***t shows between terrain & clouds)
Ibra wrote:
Anyone who has done that kind of VFR flying over 300nm would be able confirm that they tend to get closer than 1kft to clouds with visibility less than 5km (as they are flying using modern AI & VOR/GPS instead of horizon, maps & clocks), just ask anyone who does it if they have lost cloud separation at some point as I was not in the cockpit, what matters is being smart about it
Sure, but everyone needs to be very aware of the difference between what is legal and what is illegal but can be done with reasonable safety and you’re also likely to get away with. You wrote that
on VFR FPL, you can legally climb from VMC bellow clouds dead inside clouds to go above them and maintain VMC on top of clouds on PPL
which is most definitely untrue. That in some cases it can be done safely and with a very low chance of getting caught out is another matter entirely.
Of course it’s OK to fly in clouds in order to maintain safe legal altitudes versus obstacles and maintain VMC above clouds, the same as it’s legal to make 180turn inside clouds to remain VMC, basic instrument flying is part of FCL training and it included climbs, descents, turns in simulated IFR
Both are legal and safe otherwise we will be dead like the thousands of who went down !
The “hole” business is in theory not an issue because you file Z and obtain the IFR clearance while still VMC below the cloud, and the opposite at the far end.
Getting ATC to co-operate is another matter entirely and I suspect the near-zero takeup of the EIR is due to “too many” people having realised that. Well, like all attempts at a “new and more accessible IR” the EIR got crippled on Day 1 by regulatory / airspace politics, leading to the exams being not only the usual garbage but also the same amount of it.
In any “business”, a product nearly always fails unless it delivers something clearly desirable. The vast number of man-hours wasted on the EIR by all those who pushed it is pretty sad. Especially as anybody who actually uses European IFR could not have kept a straight face.
Even in the “land of good ATC” – France – it has taken me anything up to an hour to get an IFR clearance on a Z FP, routing EGKA-BILGO-etc, and that is completely unacceptable as a strategy. If would be OK if you were on a bike doing 15kt
Posts merged into an existing thread – eventually same topic
Ibra wrote:
Of course it’s OK to fly in clouds in order to maintain safe legal altitudes versus obstacles and maintain VMC above clouds, the same as it’s legal to make 180turn inside clouds to remain VMC, basic instrument flying is part of FCL training and it included climbs, descents, turns in simulated IFR
Are you talking about emergency authority? How did that enter into the discussion?
Are you talking about emergency authority? How did that enter into the discussion?
No, just business as usual of flying and delaying with terrain & weather
I don’t recall there is a need to declare an emergency when performing 180deg turns in IMC? are you saying PPL pilot should sqwak 7700 and inform ATC of their mayday before performing that turn?
