What stops the creation of a "high end" PPL school in Europe?

Stephan_Schwab wrote:

We humans are incredibly flexible and can adapt very well by default. But there is a lot being done to stop us from adapting constantly. It is much easier to have people who follow rules and don’t think outside a given box.

Yes, adaptation is a threat to power but in some cases technology (which is high level adaptation) can keep moving anyway to counteract entrenched power. It’s become the 21st century arms race, and every case I see of ‘our’ side losing, possibly forever, makes me sad

If I want specific training I find the best instructor (or other individual) to give it to me. The rest is meaningless and I don’t want to fly somebody else’s plane, or pay the rent for somebody else’s building, or help pay their hidden taxes.

Rwy20 wrote:

BTW, quotes for a “complete PPL” have to be taken with more than a grain of salt, because each school calculates this differently. For example, almost nobody achieves a PPL in the minimum hours, so the price for additional hours is very important. I have just tried to find prices on their website, to no avail. That is usually bad news.

Yes. Any quote needs to be taken with a teaspoon of salt because it appears that they make them very minimalistic by simply multiplying the dual rate by the minimum of hours required. It surprised me that the (PPL) quote from A&C was comparable to estimates from aeroclubs.

I was relatively satisfied with my MEP training at A&C. It was completed in minimum hours. They did require 10 hrs 1:1 classroom classes, and a pet of it was an introduction to the G1000 which I already was very familiar with.

There were a couple of things that I found a little unpleasant, one them concerning their sales department.

• Once I had completed the MEP and wanted to move on to the IR (ME) they required an evaluation flight in order to establish the training program. I argued that the instructor that I had done the MEP training with should be able to assess my abilities without another flight. That was finally accepted. At some point however I did consider going to ACOP but I believe their Seneca was out of commission at that time, and it did not make sense for me to fly the Seneca if I later intended to continue flying DA42.
• On premises the instructor stopped and talked to everyone in the hallways of the facilities and was often delayed for that reason. If he had to go to the printer to retrieve a printout, you could bet it would take ages for him to come back. I once sat in the airplane ready to go for a long time and almost had to delay the IFR FPL for that reason. I ended up starting the left engine and he came running.
• They really only had one DA42 available to them which was in private ownership. The owner often used the airplane during weekends and if he decided to do so when I had a flight scheduled, the flight was canceled. Same thing if there was a sna

They were however absolutely great at dealing with examiners and the Norwegian CAA, and had very nice briefing rooms and plenty of them.

Edit: with me they were also very up front about what their quote did not include (additional training and practical exam)

I beleive that the most important aspect of such a school would be organisational. The place where I’ve done my PPL, Tréner at LHNY has an extensive fleet, full time professional instructors and very good facilities at LHNY (the LHDC base does not exist, contrary to what is advertised). They’ve been doing the practical education of aviation BSc students at the College of Nyíregyháza for 20+ years, who earn a CPL by the end of their studies. Most of the instructors are good, some are excellent. I’ve been able to finish my PPL in minimum hours (exactly to the minute, as logged) and could schedule the lessons to fit my rather busy schedule. The whole course took less than 4 months. They were also very flexible with the theory part, I could do as little or as much 1 on 1 consultation as I wanted. Also, the price quoted for the PPL included everything, including fees paid to the CAA, landings fees at other airports etc.
On the other hand, the place is seriously disorganised for someone not attending the affiliated college. It took multiple calls to confirm simple details (i.e. whether the course fee included CAA charges) and get a written quotation. Also, requests for anything unusual had to first go through my instructor or the person in charge of commercial matters, then approved by one of the two bosses (head of training and managing director of company). Sometimes information got lost in between or the bosses completely overrode agreements that I made with my instructor. The latest (and possibly final – I’m considering cancelling all my remaining scheduled lessons, the NVFR training and Piper Arrow type familirisation over this) such episode happened earlier this week when the managing director cancelled a flight claiming that operation in that low OAT (ca. -8°C) would damage the engine of the plane, which, btw, lives in a heated hangar.* This could have been a flight with passengers, making the situtation even more uncomfortable. Also, the managing director lectured me that on days like that (it was VMC) I should not have been flying and anyhow no flight should have been scheduled between Dec 15 and the end of February, because this is how it was done when he was a student in the socialist era. I don’t think that such an attitude is acceptable towards a customer. I tend to think that they are not interested in keeping me a rental customer.

All in all, from the professional point of view I received very good training there and I fly more confidently with my PPL than what I’d thought before embarking on the course. The school has good infrastructure, so it would just take some more organisation, including possibly empowering the customer-facing staff, to make it much more attrective for serious private pilots. They currently does not seem to be interested in doing that, because they have the constant influx of college students and also WizzAir cadets from this year, but in the long term they would probably be better of by catering for people like posters on EuroGA as well.

*Edit: I would not have any problem with a clearly policy stating not to operate below a certain temperature, but it was more like an ad-hoc decision resulting in a last-minute cancellation.

When I was looking for a flight school for my PPL, I was looking for what Peter describes in the original post of this thread as the ideal flight school for me.

I tried Air & Cie (now Astonfly). Spotless hangars, pretty hostesses, nice aircrafts, expensive prices. But the instruction provided was not professional (I can elaborate if needed). Their business model is not to purchase expensive aircrafts but to have clients purchase their own expensive aircraft, and then pay Astonfly for hangarage, maintenance, instruction, and receive a low hourly rate when the school uses the aircraft for training other clients.
After visiting more than 10 schools I eventually found a good instructor in a small school where I could complete my PPL. But with my new PPL and no real knowledge I was still looking for training. So I found an instructor who wanted to built up time (thanks to the FFA website) and I travelled with that instructor for 10 or 20 hours until I felt confident enough to travel on my own.

As we all know, PPL is not about training to fly for real, but about how to pass the exam. If you want to learn how to travel for good you need more training.
Now that I’m an instructor myself, I can fly dual with you on my plane on a cost sharing basis if you want to built up experience with someone more experienced than you.

Being one who is attempting to get an IR via the CBIR route while balancing work and family at the same time, I could not agree more.

The school I use is reasonably well equipped with G1000 C172s, but it is the planning and booking that really ticks me off, and I believe it is because 95% of their costumers are rich on time and poor on money, so idling around on the airfield is no issue for them. Well, if I take a day off work, the cost of flying is with the best respect not my greatest concern and we have had several conversations where they fail to understand that. Obviously you don’t want to pi$$ them off too much either as you rely on them to sign you off for the exam.

For anyone doing a CBIR, I’d suggest the following checklist on the training organisation
- Newish airplanes that are unlikely to “go tech”
- Professional, preferably online, booking capabilities rather than the old handwritten books and – importantly – flexibility to make your flying days actual full days
- Based on a larger airfield with instrument landing and departure. Otherwise you will be spending 2/3 of your time commuting back and forth to the larger airports, and with limited slots available they will often (rightly) prioritise based aircrafts
- FIKI equipped fleet if you’re training during the winter. I have had several wasted days because we could not be guaranteed to get into the airways without encountering ice (so it is better economy for the school to use the plane and instructor to train VFR students below the cloud)

Unfortunately, I only score a single point on the above and had there been better options available, I would have moved. Hopefully there are more schools opening up for CBIR training in the future, but I’m not sure if that will be the case.

Piotr_Szut wrote:

Their business model is not to purchase expensive aircrafts but to have clients purchase their own expensive aircraft, and then pay Astonfly for hangarage, maintenance, instruction, and receive a low hourly rate when the school uses the aircraft for training other clients.

First off, Lease Back is a very common way for a) the owner to pay down fixed costs & depreciation and b) the flight school to have access to a fleet that is valued in the € millions.

Sounds like a perfect “Win – Win” deal to me.

If the owners thought they are getting a raw deal, they are free to drop the contract.

Also, the maintenance at Air & Cie / AstonFly is first rate. Ask me how I know.

Michael wrote:

Also, the maintenance at Air & Cie / AstonFly is first rate. Ask me how I know. 

How do you know?

Rwy20 wrote:

The thing that made me walk away is when they wanted me to first sit through 35 hours of ground instruction before going into a sim or plane.

The regulation requires at least 10 percent of the theory to be in a classroom. And as I understand it, if their manual says they do 35 hours in a classroom, they do 35 hours in a classroom. Unless it allows for other options, there are none. Which doesn’t excuse a condescending tone.

I think the basic issue is being uninformed. I would think that if someone wants to fly around Europe, they start researching how that is done. But perhaps some people search directly “how to become a pilot,” or nearest flight school or aeroclub. If you don’t have an idea about what it entails, you can hardly judge which school is right for you and which training better meets your needs. Of course, if you say flat out “I want to fly around Europe,” they should be able to help you and point you in the right direction. However, you can’t rely on that.

I’m just a bit baffled how people managed their cross-country solo if they have trouble planning a flight after obtaining a PPL.

Martin wrote:

I’m just a bit baffled how people managed their cross-country solo if they have trouble planning a flight after obtaining a PPL

Me too. On the other hand, I know many microlight pilots having done all their flying in small fields, and would never go to a larger (international) airport because they feel completely lost there. But PPL, they are supposed to visit several different fields, also solo (at least I had to when I got my PPL)