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How does ATC/FIS work in Europe?

The UK is mostly fine; you need to keep above 2000ft and preferably above 3000ft. Keeping above 2000ft keeps you above most of the non-transponding crowd.

The problem with Biggin is that it is very close to Gatwick traffic.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

boscomantico wrote:

IMHO, Poland, Scandinavia, France etc. got it right, with pretty much unrestricted IFR flight in controlled airspace, but mandatory radio contact with either the FIS unit or ATC, which will give you an integrated service throughout the flight.

I’m not sure this is entirely correct for Norway. Mandatory radio contact is only needed in TIA and TIZ (G airspace) and controlled airspace (C/D/A). TIA and TIZ only exist around airports, but there are large areas where G goes up to FL135 over land and FL195 I think, over the sea. Radio contact is not mandatory there, but IFR is allowed. For all aircraft in G, separation is the responsibility of the PIC, also at TIA and TIZ. It’s not clear to me how this is supposed to be done in IMC without radio though. In VMC, no problem I guess.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

For IFR, which is what the comment was regarding, continuous two-way radio communication is mandatory in all classes of airspace. For a refresher, see Skybrary – Classification of Airspace.

Last Edited by tmo at 02 Aug 17:24
tmo
EPKP - Kraków, Poland

tmo wrote:

For IFR, which is what the comment was regarding, continuous two-way radio communication is mandatory in all classes of airspace

Not for Norway for sure, and not according to ICAO (I think). That skybrary needs to be refreshed See for instance here. Only in TIA and TIZ (in G) is continuous two-way radio communication a requirement. For G in general, for IFR, radio communication capability is a requirement, but two way continuous communication is not. Lots of places with no air to ground radio coverage for instance.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

Not for Norway for sure, and not according to ICAO (I think). That skybrary needs to be refreshed See for instance here. Only in TIA and TIZ (in G) is continuous two-way radio communication a requirement. For G in general, for IFR, radio communication capability is a requirement, but two way continuous communication is not. Lots of places with no air to ground radio coverage for instance.

LeSving is right. This is exactly was SERA says. For IFR in class G (and F!) Communications capability is required, but two-way communication is not, except in airspace designated as RMZ (which TIZ and TIA are in Norway). ICAO rules are the same, unless my copy of the International Rules of the Air (ICAO Annex 2) is outdated.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 03 Aug 10:02
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

LeSving wrote:

That skybrary needs to be refreshed

I checked Skybrary. It references Annex 11 which does indeed state that two-way communication is compulsory for IFR in class F/G! Interesting. Anyway, in EASA-land SERA is the law.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

It references Annex 11 which does indeed state that two-way communication is compulsory for IFR in class F/G!

A major glitch in ICAO I would say (corrected in SERA). I wonder what the US regulations say about two way communications for IFR in G/F.

Edit: ICAO Annex 2, chapter 5.3.2 does indeed back up SERA. It say air to ground watch is required on the appropriate channel, and two way communications only as necessary. That, along with position reporting. Exactly what the AIP say essentially. That table in ICAO Annex 11 is clearly incomplete/erroneous.

Last Edited by LeSving at 03 Aug 11:47
The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Apologies, LeSving – serves me right for looking stuff up… ;-)

tmo
EPKP - Kraków, Poland

LeSving wrote:

A major glitch in ICAO I would say (corrected in SERA).

Annex 2 agrees with SERA, so there is an inconsistency between Annex 2 and Annex 11.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

In the US, 91.205(d) specifies what is required for IFR flight. It does not specify airspace types so it applies to all airspace types. However, as a practical matter one can’t cruise in class G airspace in the US as almost all of the high class G has been converted to class E. The only time an IFR aircraft is in class G is on departure or on an approach to an airport that is inside class G at the surface to 700/1200 AGL, so from a practical point of view, class G is irrelevant and operations are one-in-one-out into or out of such an airport into class E where a clearance is required prior to entry.

91.205 (d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

KUZA, United States
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