Aviathor wrote:
Need to watch temperatures like milk on the stove.
As I understand it, it is kind of the same for the 231.
It seems then that it won’t be an argument against the Mooney then
Ok, exhuming my own topic as I now have more info.
I should also be flying the M20K the coming week.
Maybe @Bobo can help here ? Maybe others too…
the 1/2 share seller gave me the following annual figures (the partnership has been going on 15 years with the same pilots):
5 000 EUR (insurance, CoA, hangar expenses (no rent), GPS Jepp db)
17 000 EUR (maintenance with annual +100h + 50h)
(or 14000 EUR with just an annual)
so that’s between 19k and 22k total (without the fuel, just to be clear…)
He worded it as " if there is no major work it should not go beyond 17k with an annual + 50h visit"
I will ask for some details when we meet to fly but on first reaction and from other posts here and there this seems a tad much…
Additional info, engine has 30h and prop is new or almost. Both changed due to calendar TBO.
Any input appreciated again.
Sounds high to me, if you ask. I know it’s a different kettle of fish in Europe vs USA, but my turbocharged twin cost $8000 in annual this year. Or is he including reserves? Where is he servicing it? At a fancy jet shop where they have little experience with pistons and the owner gets to be the guinea pig as they learn on the job?
€14k for the Annual is totally outrageous, especially as it sounds like it’s regular.
My feeling is that the 14k can result only from
I used to know a guy who ran a syndicate of about 25 people around a C152. This is a fairly common arrangement in the UK where you get very cheap flying but with poor access for anything beyond a little burger run, and a lot of people are happy with that. But the plane does so many hours, and is very uncared-for because nobody has a “stake” (an emotional attachment, if you like 
) in it. His Annuals used to be €10000 (2x to 3x of what my TB20 used to cost). The positive thing was that if something broke it got fixed because the cost was divided by 25 so they didn’t have too many major bust-ups. The negative thing was that maintenance, and equipment, was to the lowest common denominator. They did agree to buy a Garmin 496! But, as I say, it addresses a market requirement…
So these figures are not unheard of but they are not normal. I would ask for a detailed breakdown and if you don’t get it, walk away. The other way of looking at it is that you might be able to run a TBM700 on Part 91 for that sort of money
Hi PapaPapa, since you are asking for input:
I’m a long time syndicate flyer. I have a 1/10 share in a Diamond DA40 G1000.
Initial investment was 22K EUR. Annual costs 1200 EUR. That covers all of the fixed costs.
Hourly rate 115 EUR, which is incl. fuel.
The initial investment includes reserves to bring the AC financially back to zero engine hours.
A 1/10 share works for me. Availability is OK. I can’t fly always, but still very frequently.
A 1/5th share will give you a very good availability vs cost ratio.
Since you’re looking for a share in a syndicate, I would suggest to also explore the idea of setting up your own syndicate.
That way, you have freedom regarding the choice of the aircraft and you can setup a structure that works for you.
Our syndicate is run by a senior guy who takes care of all the operational issues. It works, but there’s a huge dependency on a single person.
I think I would organize it in a more modern way, as a “self organizing team” where every shareholder has a role in the operation of the AC.
Nowadays you could run a syndicate using a Whatsapp group and an online scheduling tool…
I had ONE $ 11.000 annual (Cirrus SR22) when I first bought the airplane and repaired/changed everything I didn’t like plus new mags, pumps, filters … My annual THIS year (owner assisted) was € 970
$ 14.000 for an annual is a joke.
Thanks for the comments.
I talked to a friend here who owns his SR22, and he told me he counts about 10K EUR / annum having it services at the Cirrus Service Centre in France. So it does seem high.
@AdamFrisch : my understanding is that he is not taking reserves in this.
@Peter : yes, I re-read one of the thread on maintenance and the one on partnerships and my conclusions is they probably get ripped off, either by unnecessary things being made or by excessive prices (or both)
Maintenance is made at the local (and only) GA maintenance facility (Part 145). There is another one CAE which is Part 91 and Part 145 I think, but I’m afraid they’ll be even more expensive (although maybe more sensible as to what needs to be done…)
Hi,
SR22: that depends on how much he flies, but 10 for all maintenance including repairs (!) is pretty realistic if an official Cirrus SC does it.
You don’t need a “145” Annual unless on an AOC and AIUI not even then, necessarily.
Those costs are so far out of line it’s hard to speculate on what is going on. A typical SEP annual is a fixed price of about €3k, plus of course any rectification.
Part 91 is applicable only to an N-reg and is the standard N-reg regime for SEPs and MEPs.
I talked to a friend here who owns his SR22, and he told me he counts about 10K EUR / annum having it services at the Cirrus Service Centre in France.
Let’s say that being a Cirrus service centre is one of the few remaining ways of making decent money in piston GA 
A large % of the customers seem to just go back and pay whatever the invoice is. Of course none of these are on EuroGA, so this comment doesn’t apply to anyone reading this. The same comment can be made for other “current production” aircraft e.g. TBM owners also just pay whatever.
Peter wrote:
Part 91 is applicable only to an N-reg and is the standard N-reg regime for SEPs and MEPs.
Ok, sorry for the mixup…
Peter wrote:
Let’s say that being a Cirrus service centre is one of the few remaining ways of making decent money in piston GA A large % of the customers seem to just go back and pay whatever the invoice is.
Well, I think he’s a little bit like that. He also owns part of a CAP-232 ans was telling me the numbers or more or less the same.
I inquired why not use the local shop and he told me that they’re crap with Cirrus (although they are an Authorized SC…) and they he ever needs them he will pay what they ask instead of trying to maintain an artificial relationship by giving them some work sometimes.
Looks like I need to have a detailed talk about this then, otherwise I’ll just pass… and rent at the air club a few more years…
