Ultimately, in the UK, what is the point of having any ATC at all below class A airspace then, if all they do is offer you no traffic service, no flight following, no pop up capability, no deconfliction, no airspace, no nothing? They could save all that money they’re now wasting away on ATC sitting doing nobody any good, and use it to get more radar operators instead…
It’s a bit like the age old idea of having a national defense – if you’re going to have it, make sure it is strong. What is the point in having a weak army and navy? Same thing here. What is the point of having ATC that can’t actually do anything for you?
It is all very well saying you are just cleared through it, but getting a service out of anyone in parts of France can be difficult. At least in the UK, other than very low level, London Info or equivalent will come to your aid (of sorts).
AF – that isnt quite the way it works. Large swathes of the UK are “covered” by various providers that can offer a form of radar service. The “problem” is that unlike the States it is pretty poorly joined up, often goes to bed early, and cant cope with too much traffic :-). To put this into understandable words this translates into some service providers being prepared to pass your details to the next, some not, many service providers shutting down at 1700 or 1800 hours, and some of the military providers not working at all at the weekend. On a good day, if you know what you are doing, more especially a poor weather week day, you may be lucky enough to fly the length and breadth with a service the whole way and even handoffs – on a busy Sunday in fair weather you may struggle to get anything useful at any time.
We all know it would all change if there were a few light aircraft raining down on puppy farms, but thank goodness there arent, so there is precious little investment.
what is the point of having any ATC at all below class A airspace then, if all they do is offer you no traffic service
One reason is airfields with low commercial traffic numbers let’s say 1/2 a million passengers per year or less. They have an ATZ in glass G airspace. They offer basic service to create a known traffic environment.
Ultimately, in the UK, what is the point of having any ATC at all below class A airspace then, if all they do is offer you no traffic service, no flight following, no pop up capability, no deconfliction, no airspace, no nothing? They could save all that money they’re now wasting away on ATC sitting doing nobody any good, and use it to get more radar operators instead…
Two reasons:
but basically it is stuff like acting on a mayday call. There is no obligation to provide a radar service, or even to get you the taf and metar for some airport. This is London Info and they obviously do a bit more than the basic obligation, but to keep salary costs down they employ FISOs which means they are not allowed to officially see a radar screen so no radar service can be provided.Historically, the services, especially radar services, also exist to support the military. Historically, while the bigger jets always had good navigation, the little ones had amazingly poor facilities and it was only in relatively recent times that they moved on from map+stopwatch. So they were getting lost all the time and since their fuel endurance was somewhere south of minus zero, a good level of support was needed especially as an off-runway landing with a Vs of say 150kt is impossible.
Farnborough Radar etc existed for the military and later got expanded to help keep a lid on CAS busts which for various reasons is a permanent problem with no solution in sight.
Obviously having a countrywide radar cover is also good for national security and no doubt this is how it is justified and funded in France. The same radar coverage exists in the UK too but the data is not available for civilian (especially GA services) use.
Peter wrote:
Keeping a lid, as far as one can given the standard of PPL training, on CAS busts. That is why we have the various radar units e.g. Farnborough Radar. These employ radar qualified ATCOs, but they have other duties too (below).
This is just laughable. Don’t make CAS transits available but use ATC to avoid CAS busts. Seriously? The term Kafkaesque comes to mind.
It’s called User Pays, and it is coming to a country where you live
Nope, it isn’t. In any case, there’s a better word for it – shambolic. Just read Fuji’s post again.
Never really understood AFIS either, but that’s not unique to the UK. We had it in Sweden as well when I got started, but think they might have gone by the wayside now.
Peter wrote:
Farnborough Radar etc existed for the military and later got expanded to help keep a lid on CAS busts which for various reasons is a permanent problem with no solution in sight.
Two videos (generally) on the subject from “The Flying Reporter” who uploads quite some videos based in Biggin Hill and flying a PA28 in southeast UK.
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About Farnborough Radar with a visit to the actual radar room.
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Gatwick class D transit with a Gatwick TWR controller on board.
I remember we talked about the first one already on EuroGA. Mainly, Farnborough Radar could be called an ATP (Air traffic Police) unit. Their aim is to get a sqwak code to as many GA as they can, to identify any possible CAS intruder. Giving them a service is a secondary objective.
From this video, I understand why CAA support the listening sqwak procédure. They don’t care about giving anything to GA, they just want to be able to call you if give them any trouble.
The second video made me laugh about as much as the US guys crossing the UK with their FPL lost. So much calls and air time for a simple transit ! I would love to read US posters’s reaction.
For some comparison, look for “LA Mini Route Southbound” on Youtube. You’ll find a french pilot crossing over LAX with no controller on board and without any PPR. So much smoother !
