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Stuttgart to Leeds in a 182 RG

You need people with vision, and have them in top jobs. Very rare!

You never get top people government jobs.

Without GPS, I would not bother to fly at all.

Work of the devil that is. lol Don't you use your map, pencil and stopwatch for position determination?

United Kingdom

There are too many "parasite" jobs in Europe, and many of them are in aviation and related activities. So it is really hard to deregulate anything. Everybody talks about it but nothing happens...

The only way to cut down on the parasites is for top management to not create those jobs in the first place, and that in turn needs a long term policy in governments to reduce these burdens.

It's possible that the current European recession may drive some of these reductions, but I would not bank on it. I see more and more crap in my electronics business: ROHS, REACH, ISO9000 of course, thousands of parasite jobs being created all around. People working in regulation creation report a high level of job satisfaction.

You need people with vision, and have them in top jobs. Very rare!

Some things are likely to get easier e.g. the LAPL will help some people. IFR route planning is also much easier now than pre-2008, but only because Eurocontrol went mad with their mad-computer-boffin approach and made it very hard to start with (enabling the likes of Jeppesen to make millions in flight support services).

What would make a big difference would be a US-style Experimental regime in which IFR is possible. But there are big pressures in Europe against that, because the Part M business would lose out, and Part M is closely tied to EASA and their cushy setup in Cologne. I also wonder if there is "room" for a hugely bigger "homebuilt" scene because the community willing to get their hands dirty (the principal reason for the lower operating costs) is of a finite size, and I suspect most of them already fly an RV, etc.

The other stuff which is getting better is nothing to do with aviation - e.g. weather services, derived from the free US GFS model. The biggest thing by far is GPS which has totally transformed flying. Without GPS, I would not bother to fly at all.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

except surely it can't last forever... in either the UK or elsewhere in the EU. Someday, a rational Europe-wide ATC, common regulation and charts, non-passport, non-customs, non-VFR flight plan situation will have to be developed for EU aviation... at least one would hope so.

Keep on dreaming. I'm flying for 27 years now, and only a few things are easier now, but most things got complicated with much more paperwork and got much more expensive. I started flying inside the ADIZ, so every flight needed a flight plan in the 80s. I don't mind flight plans.

One day we might not need ATC anymore: Free Flight

this might be a dream in Europe too. 2120 or so.

United Kingdom

Everything you say makes sense, Peter, except surely it can't last forever... in either the UK or elsewhere in the EU. Someday, a rational Europe-wide ATC, common regulation and charts, non-passport, non-customs, non-VFR flight plan situation will have to be developed for EU aviation... at least one would hope so.

I'm the owner of a phenomenally unreliable but quite lovable old Jaguar car, and the tongue in cheek description of UK airspace as being the product of decades of 'development' reminds me of similar descriptions applied to 1960s UK built cars at that time. In reality they were 'developed' to a sort of unsatisfactory optimum because short sighted management wanted to extract every penny without investment for the future. But then in due course along came Lexus etc and today Jaguar belongs to Indians.

Yes, but the US Class E goes from 700/1200ft to 17999ft so whole flights from A to B can be done wholly in it, and the 18k max level means you can be VMC on top in most non-frontal conditions.

For VFR, no flight plan is needed.

For IFR, a flight plan is needed but you can do one airborne if you need it (the "popup IFR clearance") AFAIK.

There are no route charges, and AFAIK the proposed ones are "block" charges i.e. say $100/year. The European per-mile ones are nasty and maximally encourage avoidance via means legal and illegal.

The USA has a very achievable IR, an FAA-funded instrument approach design service, etc.

Etc, etc...

So one could not introduce just one "nice thing" in Europe, without the other stuff falling apart.

Class E without universal ATC would be impossible anyway.

And Class E down to say 1200ft would incentivise everybody without an IR and everybody > 1999kg to fly illegal VFR, which would eventually lead to money being thrown at some real enforcement (basically going after people doing "VFR" departures and arrivals in "obvious IMC") to prevent airspace becoming a complete joke.

Class E currently works in France because almost nobody there flies in their Class E (FL065-FL120 mostly) and it currently works in Germany because most Germans do as they are told

It would be possible for all of Europe except the UK to adopt the US airspace model. But once they did that, they would never be able to privatise their ATC service and I bet that is one reason why nobody here wants to do it.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Yes, it could be better (it is disjointed; while I have not beaten the 8 squawks while within the UK, I am probably close), but I like the casualness of transitioning to IFR at my whim without needing anyone's approval, no slots, no need to stick to Eurocontrol routings and all the hassle that comes with the way class E is operated in real life.

I fly 95% of the time in Class E, VFR myself and both VFR and IFR with others. If circumstances require transitioning to IFR, you call them up and do it in real time. That's what they're there for - ATC works for you, if it works.

On the other hand, I'm also the guy who has never wanted or needed to file a flight plan, or to remain in radio contact after leaving the airport traffic area, or to tell anybody on the ground I'm coming in advance - and I don't see that changing for me any time soon. So I understand the motivation :-)

The problem is that Europe has the totally screwed up Eurocontrol route validation system, which would just make life hard if Class E went all the way down.

Bizzarely, you can validate a route from say EGKA to EGMD at 2000ft. Or EGKA DCT SAM DCT BHD DCT EGHQ. Obviously such a flight plan will be binned the moment Eurocontrol distributes it to the UK IFR unit(s). The route itself cannot be flown; it would bust a load of CAS.

Anyway I am glad that Achim has joined the Dark Side

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Now replacing Class A with Class C'; that would be of benefit.

Excactly. Proper class C not like the class C above FL195, which is treated like A.

I don't see the befit of Class E, just more costs. I prefer to choose my route and don't see a point to send a flight plan to Eurocontrol for a hop from Coventry to Leicester as it is 900ft cloud base and E would start at 1000ft.

United Kingdom

boscomantico: Not quite what ICAO had in mind though...

Don't confuse instrument flying with "flying under instrument rules" (= IFR flying). The latter is exactly what ICAO had in mind with "flight plans, clearances, permanent radio contact, radar and generally just doing "what the controller tells us to do"" as you write. When transporting unsuspecting paying customers in the back there is nothing else every commercial pilot or airline would accept to do (or would be permitted to do by most aviation authorities).

EDDS - Stuttgart

this sum seems very small to me in relation to the benefit

What benefit? In Class G Above FL100, there is universal provision of radar based traffic/deconfliction service by London Mil [not sure about weekends, though - does anyone know?]; below that you need to be almost in Scotland to NOT get a radar service from somebody if you want it.

Yes, it could be better (it is disjointed; while I have not beaten the 8 squawks while within the UK, I am probably close), but I like the casualness of transitioning to IFR at my whim without needing anyone's approval, no slots, no need to stick to Eurocontrol routings and all the hassle that comes with the way class E is operated in real life.

Now replacing Class A with Class C'; that would be of benefit.

Biggin Hill
27 Posts
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