@Snoopy, are you sure that is the only option?
What if I pay a TBM owner to rent a plane and then a CPL to bring to some airport?
I don’t see anything that would stop me. Yes, I could not sell that trip to someone, that requires an AoC, I know, but what about renting?
AFAIK that is how corporate flying works – company hires a plane and a pilot, and it becomes a “general aviation” trip.
Corporate flying is NCO or NCC because the passengers own the plane, or are employees/friends/family etc… and they do not pay for the flight.
You mean Fred could rent the plane and then pay a pilot to fly it? Not sure…
What is the difference between ‘commercial operation’ and ‘commercial air transport (CAT) operation’?
Answer
Reference: Regulation (EC) No 216/2008, Regulation (EU) No 965/2012
The term ‘commercial operation’ is now defined in Article 2 of Regulation (EU) No 965/2012 as follows (previously in Reg. (EC) No 216/2008):
“’Commercial operation’ means any operation of an aircraft, in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration, which is available to the public or, when not made available to the public, which is performed under a contract between an operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator.”
The term ‘commercial air transport (CAT) operation’ is defined in Article 3 of Regulation (EU) 2018/1139 as follows:
“’Commercial air transport’ means an aircraft operation to transport passengers, cargo or mail for remuneration or other valuable consideration.”
The two definitions make it clear that ‘commercial operations’ include ‘CAT operations’. Specialised operations (SPO) are another type of commercial operations. They are also defined in Article 2 of Reg. (EU) No 965/2012.
Can one cost-share under Part-NCC? I doubt it?
I offred money for the seat to jet driver, he declined, but he was offering a seat along HIS trip & HIS dates not flying MY trip & MY dates…
Snoopy wrote:
The term ‘commercial air transport (CAT) operation’ is defined in Article 3 of Regulation (EU) 2018/1139 as follows:“’Commercial air transport’ means an aircraft operation to transport passengers, cargo or mail for remuneration or other valuable consideration.”
@Snoopy, yes, for the operator. As in this case you are your own operator, you are in the clear. And quite often in corporate flying the business does not own the plane – it is rented.
My understanding was that if you rent a plane or own it and hire a pilot and that pilot flies you from one point to another, then you are NCC/NCO. If you try to sell a place on that place to get from one point to another, then it is CAT and requires an AoC. Obvisouly, that is a pilot you are hiring and not operator. So if you are stuck somewhere or if he is ill, then you cannot do much (you can try to hire another one).
Corporate flying is NCO or NCC because the passengers own the plane
Is it OK for CPL/ATPL to fly non-owners for reward, say his boyfriend or girlfriend? or someone who paid him for arranging the trip?
If NO, does the liability of grey charter in this case belong to the pilot? or the owner/operator?
Peter wrote:
In Europe, an ATPL is needed to command a flight with paying passengers, if turboprop or jet, – AFAIK.
Actually, a CPL is sufficient if the aircraft is single pilot operated. See item (3) below.
FCL.305 CPL – Privileges and conditions
(a) Privileges. The privileges of the holder of a CPL are, within the appropriate aircraft category, to:
(1) exercise all the privileges of the holder of an LAPL and a PPL;
(2) act as PIC or co-pilot of any aircraft engaged in operations other than commercial air transport;
(3) act as PIC in commercial air transport of any single-pilot aircraft subject to the restrictions specified in FCL.060 and in this Subpart;
(4) act as co-pilot in commercial air transport subject to the restrictions specified in FCL.060.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Actually, a CPL is sufficient if the aircraft is single pilot operated. See item (3) below.FCL.305 CPL – Privileges and conditions
(a) Privileges. The privileges of the holder of a CPL are, within the appropriate aircraft category, to:
(1) exercise all the privileges of the holder of an LAPL and a PPL;
(2) act as PIC or co-pilot of any aircraft engaged in operations other than commercial air transport;
(3) act as PIC in commercial air transport of any single-pilot aircraft subject to the restrictions specified in FCL.060 and in this Subpart;
(4) act as co-pilot in commercial air transport subject to the restrictions specified in FCL.060.
@Airborne_Again, is my understanding correct that even if the operator says that min crew is at least two, CPL is still OK if the a/c is SPA?
@Snoopy, yes, for the operator. As in this case you are your own operator, you are in the clear. And quite often in corporate flying the business does not own the plane – it is rented.
My understanding was that if you rent a plane or own it and hire a pilot and that pilot flies you from one point to another, then you are NCC/NCO. If you try to sell a place on that place to get from one point to another, then it is CAT and requires an AoC. Obvisouly, that is a pilot you are hiring and not operator. So if you are stuck somewhere or if he is ill, then you cannot do much (you can try to hire another one).
I don’t know how this aligns with eu law but austrian national law requires commercial renting of a plane to only be rented to a person with the required license…
@Airborne_Again, is my understanding correct that even if the operator says that min crew is at least two, CPL is still OK if the a/c is SPA?
Correct
Ibra wrote:
Is it OK for CPL/ATPL to fly non-owners for reward, say his boyfriend or girlfriend? or someone who paid him for arranging the trip?
Yes, on a plane that the non-owner has arranged themselves, e.g. through short or long term rental.
Snoopy wrote:
You mean Fred could rent the plane and then pay a pilot to fly it? Not sure…
I’m sure. This is very much black/white allowed if the owner (from which one rents the plane) and the pilot are not linked in any way. There are even platforms to link renters to both owners and pilots (the latter two not having any contractual relationship) in two different transactions. See e.g. https://www.openfly.fr/
lionel wrote:
Yes, on a plane that the non-owner has arranged themselves, e.g. through short or long term rental.
Thanks, that make sense: the pax finds the aircraft AND the pax finds the pilot (there is no link between owner & pilot)
