gallois wrote:
Peter no one, people or institutions gives a damn about Brexit any more.
Amen!
Here we go again. A point completely missed. This is about an airport, not a patisserie. An airport has these weird people called “foreigners” turning up. If you set up an airport, you will get “foreigners”, and you need to be set up to serve them. Well, ok, one pilot living in France (not born there but seems to know it) explained to me that “serve” is a dirty word since approx 1789, too, but what can one do? Shut all international airports, is the only proper fix.
Solving these issues is not exactly difficult if one wants to actually solve them. The UK can hardly be called “super organised” but it manages to turn almost every farm strip into an international airport, with the GAR form.
I don’t disagree about GAR, I have said on many occasions that I would love to have it here, but we don’t. The EU has decided that people arriving from or leaving to a 3rd country have to comply with certain conditions. That includes GA.
France as a sovereign nation within the EU complies with these conditions and has a budget for it. The border force has decided that the budget be spent in providing 24 hour services in some places and limiting them in others. As their internal decision making doesn’t appear to be having much adverse effect on French GA pilots, no one is complaining about it.
If it was having a significant effect on the balance of payments of France or even at a local level they would be changed.
(I am leaving out La Rochelle and its intra Schengen rule here as people are complaining but AFAICT the rule is being made a a local level. ie the mayor, who I think is maybe anti GA or anti any air transport.)
As their internal decision making doesn’t appear to be having much adverse effect on French GA pilots, no one is complaining about it.
I don’t think French pilots are affected. IIRC the widespread French PN system is for customs/immigration only (military airports excepted?). Even La Rochelle has no PN for intra-French traffic (regardless of passport carried).
But, hey, GA is a hassle nowadays, in much of Europe, compared to the good old days of 20+ years ago when I started. Those who haven’t yet chucked it all in and bought a boat (which an awful lot have in past 2 years) are willing to do the PN. Yesterday I spent an hour banging on the two completely buggered-up useless PN websites related to Antwerp (will write it up for amusement). The real point, seemingly sometimes not fully appreciated, is an apparent tendency to move the system to a mandatory meeting with the police which (already active in Germany etc – see above link) obviously is a whole different ballgame because it isn’t a “PN system” anymore. It isn’t even a “PPR system”. It also makes travel impractical in real life because you do the PN, land there, find nobody there, and you have to sit there. For ever… You can’t phone up the police and ask what they want you to do (as I did once at a certain French airport to which I diverted for fuel) because
But that is, AIUI, how the EU regs are drafted!
And it isn’t going to get easier, due to the drift for airports have their own “booking websites”. We’ve done this before, of course, e.g. here. The world has gone mad, because of the internet and every dick can do this (usually badly).
On a side note, an electronic system for air travel to Schengen will come in force by end of this year, hopefully by then EU will have a system like UK GAR or US eAPIS?
While not concerned by passports stamps, I still get annoyed by PN or chasing C+I, it is becoming increasingly problematic for UK on EU side:
- Belgium require mandatory police presence now
- France missing douaniers or changing ETA/POB has become problematic
Early this year in March, I added 1pob on day and operations in some dead corner just went crazy over 24h PN, so I end up via Calais with 100nm detour (2h PN and and we did not see anyone), altough, I can’t understand the comments on Calais LFAC to be honest? it has the most chilled and friendly staff: operation & customs are top notch, likely in whole France and has a very convenient 2h PN, if one has a problem down there (as it’s the most hassle free place on earth to get Schengenised), I can guarantee that they will be fed up going further, I can sugget a trip to Turweston or Sandown for less hassle, even Scotland is probably too much…
Obviously, this hassle only impacts those who are actually flying 
To be fair, it is only a problem when crossing a Schengen border, I don’t understand why people get their knickers in a twist, within the Schengen area travel is simple, even CH (non EU) does not require you to fly into a POE field anymore. Third countries are third countries, they are rightly treated as such, if you arrive from them into the Schengen zone you need to be checked, it’s the whole idea of borderless travel within the area. The external border gets protected, within the common travel area you go your merry way, it’s the beauty of Schengen, personally I love it. I’ve flown into EBAW probably 25 times in the last 3 years including during COVID and I find the ease of use of the field, proximity to the city super convenient.
The point, let me say it again, is that “PN” is being sometimes implemented as “must meet the police”.
The rest is political ideology, which is fair enough, but what gets published via official channels (which in aviation is AIP+notams only) is supposed to work.
within the Schengen area travel is simple, even CH (non EU) does not require you to fly into a POE field anymore
That is true but if you fly to POE without PN you may get a surprise, PN for POE/PPF is likely to be obligatoire depending on who? and where?…I just learned from someone working in Chateauroux (LFLX) that now they require 4h PN for intra-Schengen and extra-Schengen, he confirmed it’s something comming from local mayor and airport are working to issue NOTAMS for it soon, unlikely to be enforced but “it’s what it is”. In France, intra-Schengen is easy when using non-POE & non-PPF as they are “owned & managed by EU” while POE are “owned & managed by national & local authorities”
If AIP/VAC says “PN for extra-Schengen only” like at Perpignan: it’s fine with no PN, if it’s says “PN for all international flights” like on Picardie: it’s not fine without PN, if it says “PN 24h”: assume it’s required for all flights and comply with it…if the airfield has no VAC, problem solved: no PN
In France, the customs change in EU law (will be incorporated in French law in 2024) and introduction of electronic immigration system (will be introduced later in 2023) may clear some of AIP/NOTAMS mess, in the meantime, it’s some hassle depending on where one flies…
Ibra wrote:
In France, the customs change in EU law (will be incorporated in French law in 2024)
Is the EU law in this case a directive and not a regulation?
Not directive, it’s a regulation (reglement EU 2020/877), this applies now with immediate effect and as such, as it’s not yet reflected in French Journal Official (then to AIP), you may need a lawyer and EU court
France national law since 2017 already allow intra-Schengen flights to non-POE/non-PPF airport and it does not require customs intervention for aircraft admission from the likes of Switzerland and Norway (under some detailed conditions), however, in POE/PPF airports you may have to wrestle with pigs in airport as it’s not what their AIP/NOTAMS say while: national law is grey on these and local authorities like Mayor/BSE have some authority on these, having the extra support from the new EU law in 2020 give more ‘legal hedge’
