@Mooney_Driver I don’t think you can equate motorways with airports.
In France for instance most motorways are toll roads and most of the people in cars can not recharge their costs. Some people transfer to non toll roads others pay up.
gallois wrote:
how many airports in the list you gave as being more covenient to fly yourself have exhorbitant fees or mandatory handling?
First, and most importantly, my point was that for a myriad of scenarios artificial, and recent, barriers like exorbitant fees, expensive mandatory handling or a policy of refusing to treat intra-EU intra-Schengen arrivals the same way as national ones are the only reason GA travel is not reasonable / most convenient. GA travel inherently is reasonable and most convenient, it is just artificial factors that destroy its utility.
Now, to answer your question:
All others are reasonable no hassle low fee airports, or at least were when I went there, which cannot be before 2018 or so, I mean not long ago. Very recently e.g. La Rochelles tries to pull off this discrimination against non-French intra-EU intra-Schengen flights.
To take other examples:
Mooney_Driver wrote:
IMHO a rule along the lines of what I proposed would do exactly that. It would stop places like Luton to be able to price out GA in the way they did, provided that there are no other airports available offering similar services which are accessible. In the Situation such as London, it could lead to one or two airports (one in the North and one in the South) would become dedicated airports for GA, which then would take away the obligation to accomodate GA from e.g. LHR and LGW. Luton might be a good one and there is Biggin now.
Not a good example with Luton – there is London Southend airport which is 30 times cheaper (not kidding) for a small plane. And it takes less time to get to, say, Liverpool Street Station in London from Southend than Luton – just check Google Maps. And there are ILS approaches on both ends of the runway, as well as SRA if you’ve lost almost NAV equipment.
London situation isn’t THAT bad, Edinburgh is worse – there is nothing around EGPH with an instrument runway. All the places you can get are far away, comparing to EGPH.
I’m not sure capping at a certain value would help. I think there should be no minimum charge and ALL charges MUST proportional to the MTOW down to 1kg. That way it would easily work.
Prague LKPR is a lot more than 200. I paid 400-500 multiple times, which was a scam because they quoted you one price and then you got a bill from another department. I haggled with them but they washed their hands of it. Once I got this nice email which is a shame since I was born there and would not expect my fellow countrymen to be doing this kind of stuff 
One tough lady pilot, @vieke, would not accept this and kicked up a fuss and they settled for the original quote, IIRC below 200.
So, yeah, a lack of transparency is a big issue. I am certain this crap exists because bizjet operators just pay anything, so long as the client gets nice croissants and coffee. Airlines have special deals which are separate; IIRC Ryanair was paid to fly to various French airports, by the local Chamber of Commerce. So prices charged to light GA handlers are really set by the bizjet crowd.
@Peter wrote
So I have no idea what can be done.
Joining forces for one. EU greatly improved
- the utility value of GA as a means of transport (freedom of movement, customs, buying airplanes, basing)
- licensing for pilots
- less variation in rules and thus easier flying
- Part ML, CB IR, B IR to name a few recent improvements that really help for some much needed traction.
And then stuff like Brexit happens, where a huge chunk of GA in Europe is separated and complicated again, for both sides. It’s detrimental.
GA (certified planes flying somewhere) is a marginal activity, almost at the brink of non-existence compared to other „activities“. So „unit costs“ are high, as are entry barriers. There’s little lobby and initiative. Plenty of smart and wealthy people in GA know the issues, shrug, and pay horrendous fees for what is a farce, while clenching their teeth, making the best of the steady decline they experience.
What it would take is
- more people who fly GA
- more people with an IR (that demand access to the system) → requires progressive ATOs
- driving demand up for a modern airframe that is capable and affordable to operate
- Money, effort, input, collaboration
from people who have it and care about improving something
- Joining forces and LOBBYING, LOBBYING and more LOBBYING: Experimental IFR ✅, Basic Med ✅, EU regulated airport charges if any grant money has been paid within miles ✅ just to name a few.
It’s the squeaky wheel that gets the oil.
Take the recent changes in Croatia for example. 200€ fees for landing in a GA plane. Sure, for some this is merely a nuisance and not a problem. However, for many it is unaffordable, and they give up, are priced out of flying (or rather landing) – „can’t afford this, not worth it anymore!“
If this continues, only a very elite group will remain, and it is questionable if this group can sustain the cost alone. A bit like an airline selling only business class tickets, while economy class is empty.
gallois wrote:
In France for instance most motorways are toll roads and most of the people in cars can not recharge their costs. Some people transfer to non toll roads others pay up.
So what would happen if i.e. the “Autoroute du Solei” would decide to levy a 500 Euro fee for each car during the summer season so that the commercial vehicles can drive their Portugese organges undisturbed? One way?
This being France I suppose there would be a massive outcry followed by a grêve of some sorts? Followed by a near empty motorway and massively clogged country roads.
Or, if you want, if places people want or need to go to put up their parking fees for a personal car to 200€ per day to “encourage” the use of public transport. Never fear, these are plans which our green politicians wank about each night! If they can get away with this they would.
This is exactly how the outpricing of personal small airplanes on public access airports compares to the use of motorways and other public roads and parking spaces. Ah, but some say, cars pay road tax? Well, so do airplanes, paying outrageous fuel taxes which at least partly go into airport and aviation infrastructure.
there is NO reason why this should be tolerated. None at all.
Snoopy wrote:
EU greatly improved
Yes so they ARE capable of doing something for GA. And actually, the GA Roadmap people within EASA would gladly do so, but fees is not one of their competences, as one of their exponents explained to me once, as it is not directly safety related. I disagree with that assessment as denying access to well equipped airports due to monetary concerns may well cause accidents and IS a safety case in my view, this clearly sais if someone has to do something, it would be the department of infrastructure within the European Commission.
Snoopy wrote:
Joining forces and LOBBYING, LOBBYING and more LOBBYING: Experimental IFR ✅, Basic Med ✅, EU regulated airport charges if any grant money has been paid within miles ✅ just to name a few.It’s the squeaky wheel that gets the oil.
I fully agree. And you got it right, airport subsidies may well be a massive handle on airports to stop outpricing or loose the subsidies. Which means, some of this could be achieved via those organisations who issue the subsidies… I think that might be worth looking into.
Snoopy wrote:
Take the recent changes in Croatia for example. 200€ fees for landing in a GA plane. Sure, for some this is merely a nuisance and not a problem. However, for many it is unaffordable, and they give up, are priced out of flying (or rather landing) – „can’t afford this, not worth it anymore!“
Which is exactly what these charges are meant to achieve.
It never ceases to amaze me how even within the pilots community there are people who actually DEFEND this madness or simply don’t care about it because they are satisfied flying ULM’s for 200$ burgers. Talk about Stockholm syndrome or simple ignorance. What do they thing those in power will do once they have eradicated certified GA? Leave them in peace? Dream on.
This is a National if not a local thing. I doubt very much if the EU in its current form will ever ger around to International airport pricing, however bad it gets. Even if it did it would have no effect on airport management in the UK or Switzerland.
It is not something on top of the list for the largest ga groups in France the FFA, FFPLUM and RSA. As @Peter has often said most French pilots do not leave the hexagon because of the language and when they do its to go to places like Morocco or Senegal (countries where French is spoken).🙂
French club pilots fly for enjoyment and it would not be fun to fly to places where they are outpriced or made to feel like 2nd class citizens.
We go places because we want to go there. If Corfu or somewhere in Croatia wants to charge what we would consider a fortune, we just don’t fly there. If a country, town or airport wants our business they will have to be more welcoming.
Has La Rochelle got less business as a result of 48hr PN intra and extra Schengen? I don’t know.
I do know that the loss of a RyanAir service did cause a decline in revenue. Not necessarily in respect of landing or handling, although they do keep people employed.
A talking point here over the last couple of days was that a Brit wanted to fly to LFFK to visit friends nearby for the weekend. He wrote to the mayors office to ask for permission to land and park. The mayors office in turn passed it to the President of the aeroclub. Neither were totally confident in their English and as I happened to be around when both were at the club they asked me to respond, which I did. For some reason he didn’t get my email answering his questions and while I was sitting, engine running, in the aircraft he telephoned the club president who passed the phone to me. I answered his questions about parking and landing and parking fees as best I could whilst taxiing. I could sense however, that he did not believe me and had more questions or was still unsure. So, I met him on his arrival to show him where to park and where their friends could bring their car to meet them and how to get in and out ie just to say don’t worry.
Why has this become a talking point here?
The answer is most are bemused as to why he asked permission etc. in the first place. It is not the norm here. He could have just turned up as most do.
Fortunately, once more thanks to Euroga I was able to explain the situation.
@Peter has hit the nail on the head in his post.
“Lack of transparency” Pilots want to know exactly what they are going to have to pay in total. What they can expect for that money.If notice or permission have to be given in advance and whether or not they have the fuel required and at what price.
Now that is something the GA community could press for and it is also something the EU or EASA could regulate. But of course it would still not necessarily be taken up in UK or Switzerland.
@Mooney_Driver €200 burger runs in a ULM or any other aircraft is not our normal thing😃
What the FFA here are more concerned about at the moment is discrimination of any kind.
The minister responsible for sport and leisure has written to all associations about stamping out all sorts of discrimination.Quite right too?
However the ministry of transport and the ministry of finance have seen fit to cut €0.15 off of a litre of fuel for everyone except for GA.
The FFA and FFPLUM on behalf of its members have pointed out to the President and Prime minister that this is a gross discrimination against GA. They have yet to receive a reply. Maybe we will have to don the yellow vests and take to the streets. Which as Mooney suggested would be the result of exhorbitant toll road charges.😁
However, if you e.g. have to land in Nice because Cannes goes below minima or is blocked because of an incident, Nice should not be allowed to exploit anyone who has to land there.
Unfortunately they are able to issue NOTAM forbidding you to file their airport as alternate claiming operational reasons like capacity. They do exactly that in Split LDSP – in high season you can’t file LDSP as alternate and they’ll refuse your landing if you try. So you can imagine flying to Brac LDSB (IFR only on Tuesday and Saturday) and airport being below minima or not VMC – you have to fly to LDDU or LDZD which are pretty far while LDSP is just few miles with ILS and 200’ minima.
gallois wrote:
The answer is most are bemused as to why he asked permission etc. in the first place. It is not the norm here. He could have just turned up as most do.
I can also see this happening more. My airfield has clearly published operating hours both in the AIP, in the Swedish VFR airport guide and on our own web site. It is also clear that PPR only applies outside of published hours. Still every now and then visiting pilots call or write for permission to use the airfield. (It would be a different thing if they asked about field conditions – we’re quite good at publishing NOTAMs but not every grass field operator is.)
Depends on where you fly.
People who fly in one country get that country sussed out, right down to the details of which military/prohibited airspace is active when, and which numbers to call if not. And that if you ask in the “right” language you are likely to get a transit; another manifestation of a cultural lack of transparency in human interaction.
People going somewhere new have to be a lot more careful, because in some countries an airport will deny landing clearance without a thought. Italy and Greece are pretty good for that. I’ve had to get PPR three times for LICR just now, due to changes in dates and finally they wanted me to reapply because I was arriving VFR instead of IFR. It’s a complete joke for jobsworths, assisted by a culture of job protection, job demarcation, all propped up by union rules from the 1960s which nobody can do anything about even 50 years later. Look at how many airports there are which have 1 airline flight per week, are an absolute bastard to fly to with GA, but you can count 50 cars in the staff car park! That’s several million a year in payroll and direct costs of that, unquestioned by any higher authority, and basically using the airport to scam the taxpayer.
I’d say that scamming somebody is a large part of why so many airports are hard or just simply expensive to fly to nowadays. In Greece they have always applied the scamming principle openly – it’s the “Greek way” of delivering social security – but we just don’t expect it “further north”. We are quite wrong… why do you think the €500 note was introduced?
