Sorry @ Peter I cannot agree with you that the French AIPs are not written properly.
I fly by them all the time.
What are the problems in this thread are:-
1/ re-Annecy
The AIP is correct in the information it has received from the airfield operator who in turn are including information from the responsible C+I
The fact that Vinci and the regional border force appear to be making up their own rules regarding intra Schengen ga entry and exit and possibly even Intra Schengen non EU entry and exit is the problem.
The case of La Rochelle seems to be the same as Annecy except for the fact there is also a.NOTAM adding to the number of hours of advance notice. Again the SIA have printed in the AIP the information given to them by La Rochelle operator with C+I information provided by the regional border force office.
So if you comply with the AIPs and Notams on both these airfields you cannot be wrong.
However, following on from lionels posts the information being given to the SIA goes against the Schengen treaty. And GA pilots arriving and departing intra Schengen would be well within their rights to ignore this as lionel has said.
However, one can well understand why many GA pilots are loathe to go down the argument route especially with the report of the Dutch pilot being fined €1500 which stuck until AOPA got involved. And a language barrier.
The PN or PNRs or PPRs etc for those entering and leaving from countries outside of Schengen and/ or outside of the EU is a different subject and needs to be kept separate. For instance the case of customs PN and baggage needs to be clarified.
The length of PNs, PNRs/PPRs is a local issue. IMO this has mainly been exascerbated by the reorganisation and depletion of staff due to the introduction of Schengen. It’s like the merger of large companies some staff become surplus to requirements, some need retraining and others moved to different locations. With Schengen here we have the merger of several countries rather than several huge corporations. And in France we also have an earlier age of retirement (for the moment at least) than many other countries.
But what we definitely need is clarification of GA and Schengen at Government level.
My intention is to take this up with the FFA and possibly FFPULM who engage in regular discussions with the DGAC and other government departments.
I will be sending a précis of all points covered in what are actually 2 threads running at the moment.
I will also be seeking clarification from the responsible for LFFK at the local Commune of Communes. This is a follow on from discussions already in progress. Our belief is that no border force representation or PN or PPR is required for intra schengen flights to and from LFFK.
Still waiting for an answer regarding customs for Swiss visitors but early signs are a PN declaration of nothing to declare to local customs office should suffice. As for 3rd countries. At present that still looks like a no no but a might be possible for a specific day or even weekend event.
But if AIPs are wrongly worded please give examples of where they differ from those being set by the airfield operator so that I can include them or do a separate email to the SIA.
@LeSving: Let’s face the truth: Flying in Scandinavian countries is among the easiest and most uncomplicated in Europe. Alright, the Avgas situation in Norway could be better, but when it comes down to customs, ATC, airspace, fees etc. you guys are living the dream!
Now back to France, where flights from full EU and Schengen member states to point of entry (PoE) airports, are getting harassed by border forces or customs. Should a flight from Germany to France be as easy as flying from Sweden to Denmark? Yes. Does it so in practice? No.
It might sound ridiculous, but the best way to fly to France from full EU+Schengen states, is to land at a small non-PoE airfield first. Coming from Germany, Saint-Dié Remomeix for example, is really nice and offers Avgas with Total-Card 24/7. Afterwards, you can continue to any PoE-airport like Annecy, without any hassle.
@Frans are you just talking about Annecy here and is the hassle more than just the PN/PPR when arriving from Schengen and EU country?
If so can you post it so that I can include it in my missive to FFA.
There is supposed to be an agreement coming up whereby you shouldn’t even need an FPL to fly between France and Germany. I don’t know how far that has got but it was mentioned on the SIA website some time ago.
France is probably the worst because they simply cannot write their AIP properly.
I have to say @gallois has it right here. Exactly which bits of the AIP? And what do you mean by “can’t write it properly”?
I’m sorry, I know you do IFR, so maybe its different for you, but to me, as a VFR Brit pilot looking at the French VAC and then the UK Airport plates and Information pages (which as you say only exist for half of the public aerodromes in the UK), I think “why doesn’t the UK do a similar style VAC?” The french VAC is about as clear to understand for a pilot as it gets and everyone uses it. In contrast there are at least 2 different independent “airfield guides” in the UK, which quite frankly wouldn’t exist if the official UK AIP wasn’t so completely user unfriendly to access and understand.
I’ve read the 3 VAC entries for the airports starting the thread, and they are clear what is required of a pilot… and the whole point of a Notam is to correct the official AIP, so La Rochelle is actually doing the right thing!!
Regards, SD..
It’s my experience in general with flying to France. Even though the AIP for Colmar (LFGA) only requests 24 hrs PNR for flights from/to outside Schengen Area or outside EU, the local border forces request it for flights from full Schengen+EU states as well.
Another example Chambery Aix Les Bains (LFLB), which is offering customs 24 hrs PPR. They demand it while coming from Italy as well. Plus the VAC is telling that police and customs are available as per NOTAM. However, there is no NOTAM. There is information available in the textual AIP AD-2.
As I’m now based in Switzerland, flying to France is not that easy anymore, and I would love to go wherever I want using the EU regulation 2020/877. As you already wrote, there is still a lot of uncertainty about how French customs deals with flights from/to Switzerland (or Norway so to speak). Personally, 24 hrs PPR is way too much for planning purposes and moving times is also critical. Especially as a VFR pilot, weather and demand can change very quickly. At least Pontarlier (LFSP) offers 12 hrs PN PPR, which is close to the Swiss border and works fine. (If you have the correct form, otherwise Metz customs office rejects the request and you can send it again with a new 12 hrs minimum time distance between sending the form and your ETD or ETA.)
It’s my experience in general with flying to France. Even though the AIP for Colmar (LFGA) only requests 24 hrs PNR for flights from/to outside Schengen Area or outside EU, the local border forces request it for flights from full Schengen+EU states as well. Another example Chambery Aix Les Bains (LFLB), which is offering customs 24 hrs PPR. They demand it while coming from Italy as well. Plus the VAC is telling that police and customs are available as per NOTAM. However, there is no NOTAM. There is information available in the textual AIP AD-2.
Can I ask how you have had this experience? I have flown into France from Italy a bit, just filed a flight plan… As I have mentioned elsewhere, if the airport has douanier there at the time, you may have to walk past them to get to/from airside – whats the problem?
Chambry has “see Notam” in the VAC. Right now there isn’t one, so I’d say they don’t have Douanier available. I’m guessing it’s only in the winter for the ski-bunnies.
Colmar has douanier O/R 24hr PN for outside EU/Shengen in the VAC. There is a Notam that reduces this to 12hrs for Switzerland. I’ve been through there twice to/from switzerland and no-one turned up, I fuelled/waited 15-20mins past my notified time, went inside and asked the tower AFIS guy if he had seen/heard anything from the douanier and left.
As I wrote as the length of PNRs and PPRs are local decisions. But I notice that nearly all examples are for douanier (C+I).
AIUI all airports shown on French airports as CAP should never have PNR or PPR for the airport itself unless you fly a ULM. But I have not researched this fully.
The big question is whether or not a PNR or PPR to border force is required at all.
AFAICT Chambery requiring 24hrs PPR for customs from Italy is simply wrong and I will include that example in writing to the FFA.
Peter wrote:
But just now the receptionist at Annecy told me that intra-schengen does not need the police, which is the opposite.
In fact police didn’t turn up for me, but honestly, it would really had surprised me if they would have come for an intra-Schengen flight.
But the other requirement is prior notice 24h (which I practically always do anyway, however not to all these recipients) AND filling out that customs form. And the border police required me to send it even knowing (I pointed that out) that it’s an intra-Schengen flight.
So what would be the solution. Not to send the form and not to bother about what is written on the homepage? I tend to do it like Peter, to get the things right before departure, because I don’t want any hassle. There’s enough to do still without it.
Looking at what people write here, it feels as if the best course of action for people flying from outside France would be to land at some “crossing” place (non PoE if flying from Schengen, PoE otherwise) and then proceed to your destination. So for the UK that would be LFAT/LFAC entry/exit.
LFAT or LFAC is not very suitable for aircraft coming from Switzerland or Roumania.
Neither are any good for me if I want to go to the Channel Islands for the day.
If I think I might want to do that, nowadays I PN outbound and inbound details as soon as I think and plan it. And if I can’t go eg for weather I cancel either by phone or email. Last minute changes delays or advancements are of course more difficult or even impossible and that is something that perhaps the government needs to think about.
IMO the best would be a Governmental clarification plus some sort of system to deal with last minute changes, carried in the AIP and to which all regional border forces are made aware.
But it will also mean GA pilots not confusing issues. There is a difference between aircraft arriving from Germany, UK, and Switzerland.
If customs and or immigration are necessary you will have to enter via an airport with 24/7 C+I or send a PN so that douaniers can attend if they so wish. They may or may not wish. But they need also to reserve the right to make checks when they do wish.We may not like it when it affects us personally, especially when you want to fly at a weekend and you need 48 or 72hrs notice for a vfr flight.
