Sight-seeing trip to France - any tips or recommendations?

gallois wrote:

Naturally it can’t cover every eventuality and concentrates more on what has changed.

Exactly my point. But it does not mean an explicit clearance isn’t required. SERA is clear, it is. And even your document that you provided gives such an example:

F B X, transit via W H, W D, then E N, maintain 2 000 feet and report before W D.

This is an explicit clearance to enter CAS. Now in this case they do it by instructing a specific route, but they could just as well let you do it via own navigation and tell you transit approved.

This is my point. You have to get permission in some form or fashion that you are cleared to enter CAS. And not like Peter and that blog is saying rely on some sort of implicit permission just because you’re speaking with them and got a squawk. That is incorrect and I hope we’ve cleared that up now that you’ve shared that.

hazek wrote:

And if in doubt read this: https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/document-library/general-publications/egast-radiotelephony-guide-vfr-pilots

There is no doubt about what should happen. It’s just that in France that’s not really what happens. Even the example you give isn’t a clearance. In the UK you’d be busted for entering controlled airspace after hearing “Transit Approved”. ATC will tell you that they are agreeing to give you a transit but you’ve not yet been cleared to start it. You may have to hold before being allowed to start your transit.

For what it’s worth, I tried for a long time to get ATC to say the words “Cleared to enter…” but it was like pulling teeth. In the end I settled for doing a read back and where I believe that they were clearing me to enter controlled airspace without saying it, I simply added “and understand I’m cleared to enter the class Charlie / controlled airspace / control zone at ….”. At least then if I’ve misunderstood, they should correct me

johnh wrote:

In the US, you don’t need an explicit clearance for C or D either, “two way communication” is sufficient, i.e. you call them and they call back with your call sign.

The US is peculiar in that respect. Per ICAO and everywhere in Europe you need an explicit clearance for classes C and D – but indeed it does not necessarily have to include the word “cleared”.

Guys. Please. Let’s drop this off topic topic.

Regs are clear. SERA says:

And it’s not like I don’t fly in CAS or in French CAS. You’re not going to tell me my personal experience didn’t happen. Every single time I take off I take off from a CTR and every time I fly I fly through a Class D and I mean I know what I say and ATC says and how this works. If I fly south there’s a French Class D right on the border I know what happens there as well. And this is according to all the manuals.

You can fly however you wish but what I’m telling you is that if you want to have care free flying in France, follow the regs, follow the standard phraseology and you will have no issues. I can’t promise you the same if you follow some of the other advice on here.

Yes, technically CAS class E for VFR does not require clearance. You are correct. But why would I mean CAS for IFR when we’re talking about VFR and VFR is not controlled in class E? Obviously I meant CAS class B, C and D.

Or as Humpty Dumpty said, “When I use a word it means whatever I want it to mean.” Class E is controlled airspace, end of story. It happens that if you are VFR, you don’t get controlled, though you may well get advisory services. But it’s still CAS.

This is getting silly.

That was the point I have been trying to make. The word “cleared” is now only used by ATCOs in a limited number of occasions.
But yes you still have to request entry into CAS (VFR) or regulated airspace even though the clearance will use words which are usually explicit to some.but implicit to others.
Remember I wrote in another thread, in France we expect to be allowed into CAS, just as they would in the USA. It is very rarely denied in regulated airspace also.
However, whilst we don’t usually plan a plan B for.CAS, we do for regulated airspace.

gallois wrote:

But yes you still have to request entry into CAS (VFR) or regulated airspace

Hallelujah!

gallois wrote:

even though the clearance will use words which are usually explicit to some.but implicit to others.

I never argued the words. I only argued it’s never implicit. It’s always explicit. It has to be. What ever words they use, you will know if you can proceed or not. If they don’t let you know that, you are not allowed to proceed. That’s my entire point. Can we stop this nonsense now?

IME, one reads out the desired route, which is partly in CAS, and the ATCO replies with Radar Contact or Proceed.

Brits, always scared of getting busted, press for an explicit clearance to enter CAS, and the ATCO, slightly irritated, then uses the proper wording.

The reason this works is that France has radar everywhere and every ATCO is radar qualified. So if they need to move you, they will just call you up 😄

I don’t like this slackness because if something blew up, they could claim later there was no clearance. We now move to a discussion of how social and corporate transparency varies around Europe and how much it matters who you upset 🤣 Good luck finding a lawyer 🤣 I have personal experience of French ATC / DGAC behaviour… from 2003 and previously posted.

Day 3: Caen to Limoges via Le Mans, stop halfway and do a tour at the Le Mans museum (which is apparently quite close to the airfield), then continue on towards Limoges.

If you still have some time to spend, Le Mans old town is worth a visit too.