Lot of great thoughts exchanged here. Mooney guy I like the way you think. Also what Stephen Schwab said about infrastructure is really the game changer. That is exactly what we have in the US.
What frustrates me the most is to see, is how poorly the flow is managed. Not everywhere and not with ATC enroute or radar but rather at the airports specifically; control towers or worse at Info Control Towers which act as a hybrid between a real control tower and a Unicom. These people need to be sent to the US if not for training at least so they can see what level of performance a human can aspire to.
Other than to keep track and charge fees I really dont see the need for anyone telling me there is someone in the pattern or that the runway is free. Its nice to know what runway is in use and the winds. But even that is not necessary. These airports should be open 24/7. They should have cameras installed for fees thats it.
As far as charges are concerned. I bet almost every major airport is govt support at one level or another. The airlines dont pay the whole freight. The local govt Im sure gave them either tax breaks or lower fees because “they help the local economy”.
Here is what I do know, its a blue print. The govt owns the land on which the major city airport is located. They contract out to a contractor (ADM) to run the airport. They (ADM) in turn require that no other airport competes with them within a certain number of miles, non competition clause. They do a profit sharing arrangement. The Govt gets X and the airport ADM gets Y to equal a sum total of Z. The ADM gets free reign to run the airport anyway it see fit. In the ADM business model it is solely geared to the airlines. GA does not feature in because even private jets are not a big enough $$$ contributor to be bothered with. Instead of subcontracting to Signature or Landmar they instead dont want the hassle of dealing with GA. One reason is that they get push back from airlines. Hey that first class ticket just flew by in a G-V!! Also they dont want any possible inconvenience if a GA plane takes off ahead of them while they wait and the passengers start asking “hey the little guy can go what happened to us?” Makes the boys up front look bad. Never mind that there is a ground hold due to weather or some terrorist act where they are flying to.
Also those same airport ADM have no clue about any kind of flying GA or otherwise. They are out of business and school law school and only look at the numbers. Never mind that they are publicly funded and most if they had to pay for everything could not afford it and be out of business.
Also the question needs to be asked why the govt has to make money on an airport? Why dont they charge for the use of the local road system? Someone might say, “they do through taxes”. Well isnt that the case for the airport? Arent taxpayers paying for the airport?
Peter wrote:
and you can’t put a 737 on final when there is a C152 flying a 3 mile final)
Oh yes, you can. I learned to fly at Burbank (KBUR), a Class C airport, roughly equivalent to something like Luton or Stansted in the UK. All ATC have to do is to tell you to ‘fly offset’ 1/2 or 1 mile. Essentially you fly the approach and the 737 just overtakes you. After it’s past, you get ‘continue, caution wake turbulence’ and land. Quite fun, actually!
Flyer59 wrote:
Haha. I remember when I flew back from the Bahamas to Fort Pierce and they let me sit in the plane for 45 minutes, and you are not allowed to leave the plane until the customs officer shows up …
That is also the case in Canada. It happened to me each time I arrived from the USA, although it’s a grand total of 5 visits so not much of a sample.
(I forgot to mention how HOT it was, … well, Florida ;-))
It was not hot in Canada, I once arrived at Montreal from Orlando, 80 degrees F when e took off, 4 ft snow banks around the runway and parking areas when we landed
Another funny story about Customs and Immigration but this time it was on the Canadian side. Going to visit a little bit of Europe in North America, namely Quebec City.
After a hard IFR flight through ice and snow we finally arrived at the major airport for Quebec. (Forgot the ID to lazy to look it up) It just so happened that a B737 had landed right before us and so C&I were waiting for them. My passengers were dear friends from Paris with two young girls 10 and 8. Well what do most people have to do after a 2.5 hr flight? Thats right use the restroom. But because of the 737 we were told to wait in the plane until C&I found their way to us. Everyone knew what was going on cause all had headsets. The girls complained that included the big one. After 15 mins of no forward progress I called ground and they in turn communicated with C&I. This was all done in English. Then I had the bright idea of having the girls complain in French that they had to go. I keyed the hand held mic for this. We got action right away. within 2 mins we were clear to reposition to the FBO and the girls were relieved. Actually so was I. 
Chateau Frontenac here we come!
AdamFrisch wrote:
There would never have been class A airspace to the ground at Heathrow, just to keep GA out, anywhere else but in Europe.
There was in Paris, around both LFPO and LFPG until SERA. In order to accommodate VFR traffic in the Paris CTR, government aircraft and helicopters were admitted VFR into the class A CTR, as well as GA traffic into the Enghien-Moiselle airfield.
With SERA a class A with exceptions could not be maintained, and the CTR was downgraded to class D assorted with a restriction area (LF-R) which effectively bans most VFR traffic.
It seems to me that light GA is very much irrelevant in the larger scale of things when the economy is planned. Light GA is not a part of the picture because it doesn’t contribute creating a profit margin. Aviation is a huge industry, and light GA is simply not contributing directly in a meaningful way economically for anyone working in that industry.
Light GA has a value in it’s own right. It’s a part of a whole and contributes without necessarily putting down money. The best (only?) way to achieve that is to get as many active or former professionals in aviation as possible involved in light GA also.
172driver wrote:
Oh yes, you can. I learned to fly at Burbank (KBUR), a Class C airport, roughly equivalent to something like Luton or Stansted in the UK. All ATC have to do is to tell you to ‘fly offset’ 1/2 or 1 mile. Essentially you fly the approach and the 737 just overtakes you
A short approach is something they sometimes use in the US. I did it at Salt Lake City in my Cessna 140 once or twice (SLC has a “GA” and “Airline” side on parallel runways, but much of the GA going into KSLC are still jets). Tower asked me if I could make a short approach when I was on downwind,.which meant I wouldn’t have to wait for a jet to land. Challenge accepted! Full flaps, power to idle, great big slipping turn all the way around from downwind onto final (at which point the glide profile is similar to that of a safe with the door open), land and pull off. I reckon from 1000’ AGL on downwind I could be on the ground and turning off on the taxiway in about 1 minute. Fast and lots of fun.
Unfortunately Ronaldsway have never asked me if I can do that. The Auster can do it even faster I reckon.
Peter wrote:
Obviously B52 circuits make the PPL more accessible because less training is required. But it paints GA into a corner where nobody who has CAT movements wants it – because it is perceived as causing havoc.
We had a microlight instructor at Andreas that used to do that. It really interfered with our gliding operations when we were using the winch too because we couldn’t actually see the microlight from the airfield. It was his rather bizarre “noise abatement” circuit which was entirely unnecessary, if he flew a tight circuit he’d:
After seeing some of the practises here I’m glad I learned to fly in Texas. That’s not to say all UK PPL training is bad (there are plenty of people who took the time to learn more and plenty of instructors who care) but it seems the incidence of things like gigantic B-52 circuits are seen more here than in the US.
