Just landed back in Athens from a morning flight to new Paros airport.
petakas wrote:
To the LATERAL part I don’t object since its handy to always have fixed reference points to talk with.
What I object to is the VERTICAL part that always forces VFR as low as possible with separations of 2000 to 4000ft. from IFR traffic flying above.
I agree 100%. IMO the ideal would be to restructure the airspace and adhere to its classes. AFAIK some restructuring is actually taking place, but I cannot say more.
Ooops now I see this thread going off topic.
Admin’s split it if/where you see fit.
atmilatos wrote:
and some VFR routes
@atmilatos why do you consider those as “needed” ?
Can’t pilots report their position and altitude and based on these the AFISO to provide information to IFR traffic to separate (for AFIS) or ATC to separate ?
I write this because in Greece VFR routes are considered as good to have thing for airports and what I see is that they are usually designed to keep VFR ridiculously lower than IFR.
When I once queried a CAA source why so low, the answer was: they are designed on a scenario of
1. Lowest possible that the IFR can get at this airport airspace during the procedures
2. then 2000ft. below that because 1000ft. difference will generate a TCAS warning in the airliner
In 2. if ground is less than 1000ft. from that 2000 only then they put 1000ft.AGL.
When I queried for example why Athens TMA has so low altitudes in VFR routes when the airliners pass above them (in normal op’s) some 5~7,000ft. higher the answer was “no we use the minimum altitudes of the STAR/ILS approach or the Lost Comm. procedures, whichever is lower and we cater in these the scenario or Radar Failure in Athens TMA”
I then asked “why don’t you keep them higher in logical altitudes and if things go bad (with IFR flight, Radar, whatever) then ask them on VHF to go lower ?”
The answer was “and what if the VFR does not respond or does not adhere to the instruction, legally I cannot force him to so I will have to actively separate the IFR from it” … meaning I won’t do that for a stray off little Cessna lost in my TMA, so I’d better keep it low below and never worry about it.
In other words VFR routes design is done in an ethos that the VFR will be out of contact and/or out of (ATC) control and the routes must make sure that in ANY scenario they will not get closer than 2000ft. to any IFR.
I find this pathetic !
The reason I react to this is because VFR routes are often used by ATC as means to treat VFR flights as IFR and force them to adhere strictly to them while in the meantime the VFR pilot still has the “see and avoid” responsibility even if he is inside “Controlled Airspace”.
To the LATERAL part I don’t object since its handy to always have fixed reference points to talk with.
What I object to is the VERTICAL part that always forces VFR as low as possible with separations of 2000 to 4000ft. from IFR traffic flying above.
On a separate note regarding tie down’s and winds.
IMHO there are two issues, the aircraft moving (rolling on its wheels) if not secures or the aircraft lifting off by wind.
Yes, moving by wind can happen at e.g. 40 kts winds but certainly not 20kts if it has some sort of anchoring (chocks, concrete blocks, rope tie down).
Lifting up to fly is another story. A light GA aircraft will lift at 50~70 Kts winds depending on its weight and maybe some more factors.
I have rarely seen more than 40kts wind gusts in “normal” weather at airports.
So if “usual” weather is forecast I see no issue.
If a TORNADO is forecast that will produce winds more than 50~60 Kts then there is little you can do and there are more things to worry about than an aircraft at the apron.
This (in the Mediterranean at least) I have very rarely seen and is considered as “inclement weather” in insurance language (beyond the usual/expected) and if there is a fully comprehensive cover on the aircraft the damage will be covered.
I have a friend who wanted but could not manage to sell his Cessna 152. It was secured with the anchor screw type of tie down’s and a very rare local phenomenon of mini tornado funnel passed right by the 152, lifted it and smashed it to the ground.
(Feb. 2013) LGTT 071448Z 18030G90KT 140V280 2000 +TSRA FEW015 SCT018CB BKN025
Noone was hurt and the wind did a big favor to my friend since he had fully comp. insurance on the aircraft 
That’s exactly what I had in Milos. The wind was +25 knots on landing and I know that it can be much stronger down there. But … no tie downs. Now the Cirrus is not very wind sensitive and it has a good parking brake, so i used the chocks i brought (normal airport choecke DO NOT fit under the wheel pants). Then I drove to a local fishing supply store, but a strong nylon rope of 15 meters and attached the tail of the aircraft to a nearby rock.
If there’s a real storm you can forget the cement wheels, they will not hold the airplane … just like the metal anchors (the spiraled ones). That stuff is only good for sunshine … ;-)
Paros, being in the middle of the Aegean, with a state-owned brand new airport (hence no landing fees – is has been heard that Fraport will have fairly significant such fees at its airports) would be the perfect pit-stop destination for GA traffic AND a nice place to go if you are non-airline and want to go eg to Mykonos.
All it needs are: Tie-downs, AVGAS and JETA1, a slightly longer runway for the business jet and some VFR routes. And these are easy things to do.
As a sidenote, I have another question (maybe another thread if it expands enough): Isn’t a 30kt wind considered fairly strong to park eg a C172 without tie-downs, and only chocks? If not, do you believe that if the airliner-size chocks don’t fit (eg because you have wheel pants), the small-size wooden ones are enough? I’m asking because I want to visit some other islands and don’t know.
In LGMT visitors who cannot use the handler’s chocks are usually given these big cement-filled tyres which are very heavy (I believe 50kg) and seem adequate (?) for 30kt.
Flyer59 wrote:
But I have mediterranean family, so I can handle it. Only sometimes the German in me loses it … ;-)
Haha, keep the Mediterranean attitude when here and leave the German home, it will help.
Just don’t bother getting in discussions, focus on the mission which are the vacations, the airport process is an intermediate small process if you get the big picture, that’s what you should always think.
It’s a little different when you’re Greek and can talk to them, like everywhere.
When I was there the guy on the tower gave me a long lecture after I told him that I don’t have a paper printout of the flight plan, becasue it was filed from my iPad.
The funniest part was that they told me that they don’t have any tie downs (30 kt wind that week), because they “rarely have small planes visiting” … after telling me about the “high season” for two weeks …
But I have mediterranean family, so I can handle it. Only sometimes the German in me loses it … ;-)
True but I use it the way its meant to be per language meaning !
For example I notify them that I’m coming bla bla (date/ETA).
In the case of Milos reply to Flyer59 I would not bother replying further or sending more emails.
If asked in the air while flying there I would say “I have notified per NOTAM instructions on bla bla date”.
The rest is up to them to do their job.
To be honest, I write the above knowing that such airports like Milos do have space enough to squeeze few GA aircraft.
They don’t even have tie down’s so there’s not much to ask for.
The exception would be if they panicked and replied me that a 15 aircraft Fly In coincides with my arrival. Then I would understand; sending again closer to the date just for PNR just in case is an unacceptable reply and to me the story ends when I notify them the first time and to make sure I would keep a hard copy of the email/fax sent.
PPR is different, you cannot get away by simply telling them “I notified you”.
In practice, the difference between PN and PPR really often does not exist; it doesn’t make much difference. You still have to ask and then receive a positive reply. Anything less, you can’t work with.
@Petakas
I wasn’t me, really ;-) I sent an eMail and they replied that I would have to “send another eMail closer to the arrival” so they can see if there’s a parkings space. And then again, and again!
Good to know – next time I’ll simply send a message that I’m coming! Actually I really liked the beaches on Milos ;-)
Next stop Megara on Saturday!
