Turboprop (or other similar performance non-turbofan aircraft) - when to go VFR rather than IFR in Europe

JasonC wrote:

Patrick, broadly speaking, almost no turboprop in Europe tries to fly high altitude VFR

Widerøe routinely fly VFR if the weather allows it. Lots of mail/newspapers/parcels are carried with Caravans. I have no idea what they fly (IFR/VFR), but they can’t fly very high. with those non-pressurized aircraft. Also, except ENGM, I bet 80-90% of all landings in the summer by B-737 size and smaller aircraft are visual approaches. I think visual approach is a IFR clearance? but for us smaller fish it makes no difference, we still have to look out for them.

Something slightly different, but related. I have heard, not often, but more and more, VFR pilots using IFR wayponts as reporting point and for planning. Is this more common on the continent/UK?

LeSving wrote:

Also, except ENGM, I bet 80-90% of all landings in the summer by B-737 size and smaller aircraft are visual approaches. I think visual approach is a IFR clearance?

A visual approach is an IFR clearance

LeSving wrote:

Something slightly different, but related. I have heard, not often, but more and more, VFR pilots using IFR wayponts as reporting point and for planning.

I have heard this is quite common in France. I think one of the reasons is that those points are in the GPS database so it makes entering a VFR route into for example a GNS430, easier.

Aviathor wrote:

In Belgium, Germany and Scandinavia I believe you can fly VFR up to FL195.

Germany has class C airspace between FL100 and FL660. With a clearance to enter airspace C you can fly VFR straight to the moon, because above FL660 you can do what you like There is a lot of turboprop VFR flying taking place above FL100 if I only think of all the paradropping activity every day. Just avoid the very busy areas (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin).

Peter wrote:

get a faster departure at some busy airport

get a faster arrival at some busy airport (I recently saved ~ 30 mins getting into Le Touquet by cancelling IFR, due to people in the hold)

But in order to do that you don’t have to fly VFR all the way. Depart VFR and get an IFR pickup 20 miles down the route. And on arrival, when the weather is fine, cancel IFR (in Germany: when below FL100, because then you will be inside airspace E and need no further clearances) and proceed VFR for the shortest possible landing. I do that wherever they allow visual approaches for our category of aircraft – unfortunately not at my home base where it could save us many hours every year.

Widerøe routinely fly VFR if the weather allows it.

But the advantages are reduced in Norway because the charges are the same for VFR as for IFR.

Posts on IFR waypoints on VFR flights – here please

what_next wrote:

There is a lot of turboprop VFR flying taking place above FL100 if I only think of all the paradropping activity every day. Just avoid the very busy areas (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin).

At least in the case of Frankfurt my impression is, that they’d rather have you flying VFR above FL100. That way you probably have the least conflict with arriving and departing heavies.

europaxs wrote:

At least in the case of Frankfurt my impression is, that they’d rather have you flying VFR above FL100. That way you probably have the least conflict with arriving and departing heavies.

Yes. But in order to get above FL100 you must obtain the clearance whilst still far away from Frankfurt. Once within a 50NM radius it becomes very difficult to be allowed “inside”.

NB: Around here, this question is a little bit academic, because the typical weather does not permit too many long-distance VFR flights within airspace C per year. And I stand my old point: People who can afford a turboprop (or jet) can also afford to pay their Eurocontrol charges.

In my experience, flying above FL100 (that is, in class C) in Germany is hit-and-miss. Sometimes I get the clearance no questions asked (or just a confirmation that I’m aware I’m entering class C), sometimes I get it after some “explanation” why I want it, sometimes it is refused. A few examples:

• ELLX to EDWO has the Köln/Düsseldorf airspace right on the route. I ask for a climb, they answer something like “FL95 max”. I then say “Düsseldorf airspace right in front of me, request clearance through it or over it”, and I got the climb.
• On the way back, I actually had to circumnavigate / fly below.
• I tried the climb a few times between ELLX and EDNY. Sometimes I get it after they ask me to “confirm VFR in C”, sometimes they are reluctant. Once I was VFR on top, clear of clouds at FL085, but barely so. I took the rulebook literally; I didn’t have the required 1000ft separation, so I needed a climb. FL095 would not do because of the semi-circular rule. I needed at least FL105. I explained exactly that to the FIS frequency, although I’m not sure they caught on that I was not in danger of going into a cloud, only below the legal separation, and that I could have legal separation at FL095 if they authorised me to deviate from the semicircular rule. Both the FIS (in charge of below FL100) and in-charge-of-the-class-C ATC unit asked me to confirm I needed it due to clouds, and I got my climb.

I had the occasion to fly VFR above FL100 in France only once. I got excellent service, immediate clearance, straight routing through military TMAs, etc. Possibly the LFJL TMA guy was happy to get rid of me by organising my climb above his space :) I then used the mandated VFR route to cross the Geneva TMA (which must be done at or above FL100).

When I tried what I consider a normal cruise altitude for an unpressurised SEP in VFR in the Netherlands (something like FL070-FL095), the Dutch controller seemed quite cross that I was requesting climb into class B, but relented after a stern admonishment that I was now “controlled VFR” and had to get a clearance for any change of heading or level.

In Luxembourg, my home turf, I once requested a climb above FL100, intending to say in the ELLX TMA, to test my plane after maintenance, and got it without problem. Another time I requested the climb for a cruise, while avoiding clouds laterally (I wanted to be above them), and by the time they got around to try to organise it, I was nearly out of their airspace, so I was Brussel Control’s problem now.

lionel wrote:

In Luxembourg, my home turf, I once requested a climb above FL100, intending to say in the ELLX TMA

Impressive climb rate if you can make it to FL100 without crossing the country border

Hi Patrick,

I tend to fly VFR below FL115 on short hops (less than 45 minutes) when I know the higher IFR routes will be less direct.

Other than that, I always fly IFR.

Kind regards,

David