Turboprop (or other similar performance non-turbofan aircraft) - when to go VFR rather than IFR in Europe

Following IFPS’s tradition it actually is a major problem because the profiler can play havoc. Imagine

N0250F250 FOO DCT BAR/N0250F195 VFR

This will be refused because at BAR you initiate a descent to FL195 but you immediately switch to VFR at this point but you are still at FL250 so refused. Therefore the next attempt.

N0250F250 FOO DCT BAR/N0250F195 DCT BLA VFR

Now you have a descent from BAR to BLA and switch to VFR at BLA. The big question is — will you already be below FL200 when reaching BLA? This is where IFPS’ opinion can differ from yours and your filing software’s opinion.

It’s one of those IFPS changes that make things even more difficult and less predictable than it has already been. Not a good move…

achimha wrote:

Eurocontrol recently introduced FL195 as the absolute limit for VFR segments in flight plans throughout the whole IFPZ. Sometimes it’s practical to introduce a VFR segment into your plan as it allows you to work around validation issues and it also stops the route charging. With this limited to below FL200, it doesn’t work for turbine aircraft anymore.

SERA limits VFR flights to FL195 without special authorisation/arrangement (and ICAO Annex II has a limit of FL200), so it makes sense that the IFPS would check for it.

loco wrote:

In Poland FL195 is highest for VFR. Flying higher would require permission before flight.

For other countries one would have to check AIP. I expect rules to be similar.

Eurocontrol recently introduced FL195 as the absolute limit for VFR segments in flight plans throughout the whole IFPZ. Sometimes it’s practical to introduce a VFR segment into your plan as it allows you to work around validation issues and it also stops the route charging. With this limited to below FL200, it doesn’t work for turbine aircraft anymore.

achimha wrote:

lionel wrote:

In Luxembourg, my home turf, I once requested a climb above FL100, intending to say in the ELLX TMA

Impressive climb rate if you can make it to FL100 without crossing the country border

Not really. Even a C172 can do it. There is about 30nmi from the North VFR CTR exit point (where you are at 2000feet) to the North border, and a C172N needs 24nmi at maximum rate of climb.

Hi Patrick,

I tend to fly VFR below FL115 on short hops (less than 45 minutes) when I know the higher IFR routes will be less direct.

Other than that, I always fly IFR.

Kind regards,

David

lionel wrote:

In Luxembourg, my home turf, I once requested a climb above FL100, intending to say in the ELLX TMA

Impressive climb rate if you can make it to FL100 without crossing the country border

In my experience, flying above FL100 (that is, in class C) in Germany is hit-and-miss. Sometimes I get the clearance no questions asked (or just a confirmation that I’m aware I’m entering class C), sometimes I get it after some “explanation” why I want it, sometimes it is refused. A few examples:

• ELLX to EDWO has the Köln/Düsseldorf airspace right on the route. I ask for a climb, they answer something like “FL95 max”. I then say “Düsseldorf airspace right in front of me, request clearance through it or over it”, and I got the climb.
• On the way back, I actually had to circumnavigate / fly below.
• I tried the climb a few times between ELLX and EDNY. Sometimes I get it after they ask me to “confirm VFR in C”, sometimes they are reluctant. Once I was VFR on top, clear of clouds at FL085, but barely so. I took the rulebook literally; I didn’t have the required 1000ft separation, so I needed a climb. FL095 would not do because of the semi-circular rule. I needed at least FL105. I explained exactly that to the FIS frequency, although I’m not sure they caught on that I was not in danger of going into a cloud, only below the legal separation, and that I could have legal separation at FL095 if they authorised me to deviate from the semicircular rule. Both the FIS (in charge of below FL100) and in-charge-of-the-class-C ATC unit asked me to confirm I needed it due to clouds, and I got my climb.

I had the occasion to fly VFR above FL100 in France only once. I got excellent service, immediate clearance, straight routing through military TMAs, etc. Possibly the LFJL TMA guy was happy to get rid of me by organising my climb above his space :) I then used the mandated VFR route to cross the Geneva TMA (which must be done at or above FL100).

When I tried what I consider a normal cruise altitude for an unpressurised SEP in VFR in the Netherlands (something like FL070-FL095), the Dutch controller seemed quite cross that I was requesting climb into class B, but relented after a stern admonishment that I was now “controlled VFR” and had to get a clearance for any change of heading or level.

In Luxembourg, my home turf, I once requested a climb above FL100, intending to say in the ELLX TMA, to test my plane after maintenance, and got it without problem. Another time I requested the climb for a cruise, while avoiding clouds laterally (I wanted to be above them), and by the time they got around to try to organise it, I was nearly out of their airspace, so I was Brussel Control’s problem now.

europaxs wrote:

At least in the case of Frankfurt my impression is, that they’d rather have you flying VFR above FL100. That way you probably have the least conflict with arriving and departing heavies.

Yes. But in order to get above FL100 you must obtain the clearance whilst still far away from Frankfurt. Once within a 50NM radius it becomes very difficult to be allowed “inside”.

NB: Around here, this question is a little bit academic, because the typical weather does not permit too many long-distance VFR flights within airspace C per year. And I stand my old point: People who can afford a turboprop (or jet) can also afford to pay their Eurocontrol charges.

what_next wrote:

There is a lot of turboprop VFR flying taking place above FL100 if I only think of all the paradropping activity every day. Just avoid the very busy areas (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin).

At least in the case of Frankfurt my impression is, that they’d rather have you flying VFR above FL100. That way you probably have the least conflict with arriving and departing heavies.

Posts on IFR waypoints on VFR flights – here please