AnthonyQ wrote:
I often fly from Aberdeen to Dundee and fly the approach by contacting Dundee Approach 122.9…..which is the same as Dundee tower 122.9….and which does not have radar….which just means the single controller has both approach and tower responsibilities….it doesn’t have to be a separate facility.
I didn’t mean to suggest it does. Dundee on 122.9 is providing an approach control service.
Okay, this basically works as in the USA. One at a time is cleared for the approach (procedural spacing).
You mentioned “participating” IFR traffic is seperated. If I am not participating (what’s legal isn’t necessarily safe), could I just fly the approach, tell tower I am 10nm out on the approach (without ever talking to anybody, no flight plan etc. remaining comletely in airspace G)?
In the USA we have class E to low level on approaches, that’s why I don’t completely understand. ;-)
It can’t be strictly illegal to fly an instrument approach in Golf “on your own”, without ATC. It’s airspace Golf and after all, you are just flying some specific track and altitude through the airspace. Thr track of an instrument appraoch has no “protecting airspace” around it (unless of course it’s in CAS).
I would advise strictly against it of course, especially with the precision of today’s GPS approaches and autopilots.
Also, I guess could get busted under an “endangerment clause” if doing so.
I am trying to get all that in my head somehow. What is the value of such an IFR approach which can only be flown in (almost) VMC?
I would expect both to be the same as if the airport had a control zone, but I’m sure @Peter can give a proper answer.
Shoreham will clear you for the approach (as will e.g. Biggin Hill – also Class G).
They will try to separate you from circuit traffic, sometimes by getting them to do an orbit, but practically this separation cannot be assured since obviously anybody can be legally flying non-radio right outside the ATZ (and this – aircraft unknown to ATC – happens fairly often).
It can’t be strictly illegal to fly an instrument approach in Golf “on your own”, without ATC. It’s airspace Golf and after all, you are just flying some specific track and altitude through the airspace. Thr track of an instrument appraoch has no “protecting airspace” around it (unless of course it’s in CAS).
It is legal in the UK, in any reg whose State of Registry does not prohibit it (91.175 prohibits it for N-regs for example).
What is the value of such an IFR approach which can only be flown in (almost) VMC?
You could argue that IMC provides a higher degree of protection than ATC can 
Great, I think I understand. Thanks!
All we need here in Switzerland, Germany, etc. is a philosophy change.
Current philosophy:
IFR = I won’t look outside, they have to avoid me
VFR = I have to see-and-avoid
Needed philosophy:
VMC = I have to see-and-avoid
It’s weird that the regulation is everywhere the same, but some countries and pilots understand and some don’t.
I am trying to get all that in my head somehow. What is the value of such an IFR approach which can only be flown in (almost) VMC?
Well the UK model is that there are no such approaches, because if an instrument approach is available then approach control must be provided. You can fly under IFR to an airport in class G without an instrument approach and without ATC, though that is effectively a visual operation.
ArcticChiller wrote:
All we need here in Switzerland, Germany, etc. is a philosophy change.Current philosophy:
IFR = I won’t look outside, they have to avoid me
VFR = I have to see-and-avoidNeeded philosophy:
VMC = I have to see-and-avoid
No I think Germany and Switzerland are more like the US: there’s lots of class E (at least in Germany) where see-and-avoid is expected in VMC. In IMC, ATC provides separation between IFR flights and VFR flights are not there.
The UK philosophy is the different one, where IFR in class G, without any ATC separation provision, is standard practice.
IFR = I won’t look outside, they have to avoid me
Not quite… If you are IFR in Class G but VMC, you still have to look out. The ATC responsibility for separation is based on the airspace class, and I think you get it only in Class A-C or maybe even D?
You can fly under IFR to an airport in class G without an instrument approach and without ATC, though that is effectively a visual operation.
However, a DIY IAP is not prohibited in such a case, as mentioned above. For example the CAA could not bust somebody doing a DIY letdown in OVC002 into say Wellesbourne.
The US Class E is the key, but the UK doesn’t want to go down that road because they would have to spend loads of money on ATCOs to provide the IFR clearance which is necessary for flying IMC in Class E
