London Info absolutely do have radar. Being FISOs they are not allowed to say it. This is not a rumour. I was told this on a visit to Swanwick maybe 10 years ago. The only question was which transponder codes they see. One of the presenters thought they see everything.
Trade union rules and job protection prevent this service being more useful.
I would expect Scottish to have the same setup.
Peter wrote:
Trade union rules and job protection prevent this service being more useful.
Personally I think training has a lot to do with it. Not everything that appears irrational is due to “trade union rules” or “job protection”.
I recall the time when radar was being introduced in all Swedish towers (in the 1990s). For quite some periods, radar was available but the tower controllers were not allowed to use it for other than situational awareness as they had not yet all been trained in radar control.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Peter wrote: Trade union rules and job protection prevent this service being more useful.Personally I think training has a lot to do with it. Not everything that appears irrational is due to “trade union rules” or “job protection”.
I recall the time when radar was being introduced in all Swedish towers (in the 1990s). For quite some periods, radar was available but the tower controllers were not allowed to use it for other than situational awareness as they had not yet all been trained in radar control.
According to Global ATS, Surveillance Approach requires three more weeks of full time training:
https://www.global-ats.com/courses/approach-procedural-app/ – 7 weeks and
https://www.global-ats.com/courses/approach-surveillance-aps/ – 10 weeks.
That is after you’ve got your Basic Training done (10 more weeks).
Yes; for some reason the UK decided (to save money, I am sure) to employ FISOs instead of ATCOs to staff London Info etc, and the job demarcation rules mean a FISO cannot make use of radar. Not in the UK; they get arguably pretty close to it in France and Spain.
Not everything that appears irrational is due to “trade union rules” or “job protection”.
I never said that, so I hope the above comment is not aimed at me (obviously it was).
Nearly everything involving job demarcation is due to “trade union rules” or “job protection”. That’s how society runs. Unions protect the structures which benefit their members.
were not allowed to use it for other than situational awareness as they had not yet all been trained in radar control.
Indeed, and you get paid a lot more once you got the training 
It’s 100% politics here. ATC funding politics. And a ton of Stockholm Syndrome (don’t try this debate on one of the UK GA chat sites on FB).
What is kind of interesting is that UK has now got little bits of Class E. Class E was always regarded as unworkable here because you need controllers to provide a service in it for GA IFR traffic. Whereas in Class G you need to do only the ICAO FIS obligation (=London Info). And 99% of GA doesn’t pay route charges – as was stated many times by one well know LHR ATCO who used to post on one UK GA chat site (which has just gone behind a paywall… very brave!). What happens to the Farnborough Class E when the tower is unmanned? Does it revert to G?
