If you look at the definition of Class D airspace, being VFR inside it should not feel different to being in Class G, provided you take your VFR responsibilities seriously.
I think that the issue in the UK is created by controllers treating it as if it were a higher class. This happens less in most of Europe, and in the US it is managed as it should be.
…actually, the one zone in the UK where Class D is mostly treated like Class D is London City.
I wonder if that’s because most users are considered professional and trustworthy?
You do need an ATC clearance to enter Class D, no?
The UK tendency (which varies greatly accordingly to where and when you try it) is to not allow VFR traffic in there, which has led to comments that the UK treats Class D like Class A, but that’s really a different discussion (i.e. unpublished local ATC policies) and frankly I have seen that all over Europe, in various places, and lots of places do it even if there is absolutely no conflicting traffic in there. The UK used to do that too but they now have to account for refusals so things have got better.
Most about the US system has already been said above, but IME the controllers typically inform you about the status of MOAs and R and P airspace unsolicited. There’s lots of that in the deserts bordering the L.A. airspace and Joshua App (the controlling agency for most of it) will typically tell you what’s active and what’s not upon checking in. Sometimes – especially when there’s some exercise is going on and everything is ‘hot’ – they broadcast that info blind at intervals.
Firstly, I don’t agree that VFR traffic is not allowed in. That may historically have been true (though I don’t think it ever was), but the regulator has been clear, and the ANSPs have fully accepted and internalised, for the last 20 years that VFR traffic must be given access.
There is an online reporting form for when access is denied. I have never used it because, on the very few times I have been denied, it has been very clear on the radio that “the zone is full.” My one big bust up with NATS was when they denied access not because of traffic, but because they were understaffed. That was not acceptable.
Yes, you need clearance, but my point is that the clearance should be to enter, not point to point at an altitude, and, if you are VFR, there should be no separation from other traffic, VFR or IFR, only traffic information.
My difficulty with how many UK Class D zones are operated is that separation is enforced. If separation is required, then Class C or B should be justified in a ACP, not Class D just treated as Class C or B.
As I say, the best example of Class D meaning Class D is over Central London, where separation would be quite impossible anyway. The Heathrow Radar guys are superb.
Jujupilote wrote:
If you don’t, you are technically illegal but nobody cares much.
That is not quite true. Some ATS units do lack some formalism when they work aircraft in their capacity of FIS which subsequently enter their TMA and they work them in their capacity of ATC.
In France as in all EASA countries, you need a clearance to enter and transit through controlled airspace, whether it is class B, C, or D. It is the PIC’s responsibility to obtain such clearance. No ICAO difference required.
The fact that a FIS unit, like for example Clermont-Ferrand, also works nearby TMAs and CTRs, sometimes take formalities somewhat lightly by not explicitly clearing you through their class D, does not change the fact that you need a clearance, and it is the PIC’s responsibility to make sure he is cleared. If you know that you have a class D ahead of you, why don’t you just ask for confirmation that you are cleared through the airspace?
The fact that a FIS unit coordinates your transit through a TMA (at 10:27 in the above video), I call good service (unlike what you find in the UK where ATC is totally screwed up and you are mostly unable to obtain transit of TMA and CTR, and FIS is a joke). That does not relieve you from your responsibility to make sure you have a clearance and that is exactly what the “Flying Reporter” does in the video.
If the excellent service provided by French FIS/ATC lulls you into complacency and you fail to make sure you are indeed cleared to enter controlled airspace, you could potentially get reprimanded, but it would be your fault. Receiving flight information service (radar) does not relieve you of your responsibilities to avoid prohibited areas or getting a clearance. FIS may tell you that you are headed for a prohibited area, but they are not obligated to. And if they do not, it is not by mischief (to get you busted) but probably because they got busy with something else. Keep in mind that they are not obligated to provide traffic information either. They will do it to the extent their workload allows.
I frequently hear people getting reprimanded on the radio for doing stupid things, like entering some class D airspace without clearance, but I doubt that it will go any further than that. I have myself on one occasion busted the Paris class A. I was just told so factually, and nothing else came out of it.
If the excellent service provided by French FIS/ATC lulls you into complacency and you fail to make sure you are indeed cleared to enter controlled airspace, you could potentially get reprimanded, but it would be your fault.
That is not reality however, because if you decide to press ATC there to make a clear statement on whether you are “cleared” or not, they initially don’t understand what the hell you are talking about and eventually give you an irritated “yes of course”. A good number of UK pilots have found that out for themselves. Accordingly, few regular VFR flyers there bother to get it clarified. The words “radar contact” is the usual phrase for “cleared on your route regardless of airspace”.
I frequently hear people getting reprimanded on the radio for doing stupid things, like entering some class D airspace without clearance
Like I say, all over France one flies through Class D without ATC stating “cleared …” so it is not surprising most people don’t press to get those magic words.
I suspect those that get reprimanded were ones who were flying non-radio, initially, or were in radio contact but specified a route OCAS and then suddenly deviated into CAS.
sometimes take formalities somewhat lightly by not explicitly clearing you through their class D
Exactly… ATC can’t expect pilots to respect CAS if they don’t use the right phraseology themselves.
Does not change the fact that you need a clearance, and it is the PIC’s responsibility to make sure he is cleared. If you know that you have a class D ahead of you, why don’t you just ask for confirmation that you are cleared through the airspace?
See above.
Yes, you need clearance, but my point is that the clearance should be to enter, not point to point at an altitude, and, if you are VFR, there should be no separation from other traffic, VFR or IFR, only traffic information.
OK, yes, agreed, but it is a bit of a stretch of “real life” that VFR traffic should be allowed into a bit of Class D, say Solent (EGHI etc) and be allowed to do what it wants laterally – just because separation is not provided (via ICAO) against IFR traffic. The IFR traffic is supposed to separate itself from VFR traffic (if in VMC) but in reality they are probably busy as hell and not looking out of the window.
Pilot incompetence cannot be blamed on ATC.
That is not reality however, because if you decide to press ATC there to make a clear statement on whether you are “cleared” or not, they initially don’t understand what the hell you are talking about and eventually give you an irritated “yes of course”.
Well, you sometimes need to choose between protecting your 6 or ruffling a few feathers, don’t you…
That is not reality however, because if you decide to press ATC there to make a clear statement on whether you are “cleared” or not
They do not use that phraseology. They use “Transit approved” or “report entering the CTR” as in the video.
I suspect those that get reprimanded were ones who were flying non-radio, initially, or were in radio contact but specified a route OCAS and then suddenly deviated into CAS
Wrong. Pilots inbound to LFPT busting the LFPT CTR or TMA.
NCYankee wrote:
In the US, one must establish radio contact prior to entering Class D or Class C airspace, …. Class B airspace requires a clearance prior to entry.
That always seemed logical to me, and the ICAO version (adopted by the UK and the rest of Europe) illogical. A clearance is a contract for separation. In class D, VFR traffic is not separated from anything else. So a clearance doesn’t make sense.
unlike what you find in the UK where ATC is totally screwed up and you are mostly unable to obtain transit of TMA and CTR
Really, though? When and where did that last happen to you? I mean you, not someone else you heard about from a third party with an agenda? And did you report it to the CAA for investigation, as they ask?
OK, yes, agreed, but it is a bit of a stretch of “real life” that VFR traffic should be allowed into a bit of Class D, say Solent (EGHI etc) and be allowed to do what it wants laterally – just because separation is not provided (via ICAO) against IFR traffic
That’s exactly my point. If Class D, using Class D definitions, is inadequate, then apply to the regulator for the class of airspace that is justified, be it C, B or A. But don’t apply for D, pretend that ICAO doesn’t apply to you, and behave as if you have a higher class.
Incidentally, I have raised this with senior/top people at CAA Airspace Regulation and they laugh it off as impractical, as you do, so there is no hope of ICAO standards being applied here.
