Silvaire wrote:
Certification as a regulatory concept applies to the design, not individual aircraft.
Thant’s an excellent explanation – thanks!
Since we are all in complete agreement on the terminology, I will leave the existing section title 
I think we all agree what a “certified aircraft” is. In Europe it is an aircraft that falls into some EASA category, some CS. Non certified aircraft does not fall into a EASA CS, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are non-certified in the correct sense of the word. Annex II will soon be Annex I, so that will be confusing, but more correct. CS-LSA and CS-VLA are not ICAO as far as I know, yet they are EASA certified aircraft. ICAO doesn’t have a meaningful meaning inside Europe, and I can just as easily fly to America or Australia with my homebuilt as with an ICAO compliant certified aircraft. We are into GA, not international airline traffic. But even if we were, there are lots of airlines that are black listed, and prohibited to fly in EASA land. They all have ICAO compliant certification for their aircraft.
Microlights are in some parts certified. In Germany they have a CofA issued by the DAeC or DULV. (Although both seem not to take the certification very serkously. Hence the constant findings by the BFU)
Indeed, but aren’t virtually all planes “certified”. For example UK homebuilts are certified by the LAA. Bigger Annex 2 stuff is certified directly by the CAA since it falls outside LAA expertise. Even kitplanes which have no “CAA” involvement after the initial registration (N, and PH?) have a “certificate” (the Permit). But these are not ICAO compliant certificates.
With no input on #6… would it be correct to say that all planes without an ICAO CofA must be one of
Microlights are in some parts certified. In Germany they have a CofA issued by the DAeC or DULV. (Although both seem not to take the certification very serkously. Hence the constant findings by the BFU)
Yes, EDTF in May maybe. I’d try to make everything in a circle of 300NM around EDLE for a daytrip. So we can also meet at Shoreham
We have a Search function here, and a term like
homebuilt privileges
produces enough reading, with references, for anyone interested in researching that avenue.
Maybe we will see you at one of our fly-ins, europaxs?
Is there any input on #6? It doesn’t change the thread title debate but it is an interesting point. This is a good one but it doesn’t address it.
Peter wrote:
There are many possible classifications but the biggest dividing line of all is whether you can just jump in, start up, and fly internationally without having to get permits. And that needs an ICAO CofA.
Well, I actually CAN (legally) jump in my homebuilt, start up, and fly internationally to most (not all) european countries without having to get a permit. Sorry for nitpicking 
We did consider this at the time and could not think of a better name.
Non-certified in this case means not having an ICAO CofA.
There are many possible classifications but the biggest dividing line of all is whether you can just jump in, start up, and fly internationally without having to get permits. And that needs an ICAO CofA.
I know the majority of pilots never fly internationally but this is a European forum, and one of the objectives behind setting it up was to encourage people to fly a bit further.
All all planes that don’t have an ICAO CofA and are not “microlights” amateur built? Are there no factory built ones? What about this?
Certification as a regulatory concept applies to the design, not individual aircraft. Aircraft flying in several legal categories worldwide are built to entirely non-certified designs, including for example FAA E-AB, US ultralights and UK SSDR, and others are built to designs approved by non-government organizations that have no internationally recognized certification authority.
Individual aircraft having Certificates of Airworthiness has nothing to do with design certification. For example many homebuilt aircraft worldwide have a C of A, with nationally defined Experimental Category operating limitations. I think best description of aircraft built to non-certified designs is simply ‘non-certified’, as per the name of this sub-forum. What aircraft flying in non-certified categories have in common for discussion within this Forum area is relative freedom in design, maintenance and modification, and more challenging requirements for many international operations.
