VFR PA28/C172 e.t.c. type of plane, that is VFR avionics, fixed pitch prop and fixed gear.
Yes, preferably, or possibly a Permit VP/RG like a Pioneer 300, but I think this is out of budget at the moment.
Insurance and Annual has upped in the cost model. And from further comments I feel I have this right now.
Hourly Costs
AVGAS ca. €80 (30 litres per hour @ €2.75)
30 liters as average may be on the tight side. An O320 may be there, O360 better calculate with 40.
This came from our PA28, which I can nail to 28 litres per hour for normal operations. i.e. no GH practice.
Engine Fund ca €10
Calculated how?
Yep, good call, I had done 20k€ for an engine change at TBO of 2000 hours. When running “On Condition” a bonus… but of course where will I find one zero hours.
You may well also think out of the box. UL e.t.c is one way if that suits you.
This is definitely the way that I am starting to go. Here in Germany larger syndicate groups do not seem as popular as the UK. I have had some chats at our club and the faces have been a picture when I have said that back in the UK I used to be in a group of 12 around a C150 and 20 around a PA28 with very few availability problems. (I just wish I had spent more time learning the finances 
) And so the most I can seem to raise interest is with one other member; but they want 4 seats and a CofA. I am happy with 2. This is the reason I doing this exercise.
From what I can see a PtF makes sense for single ownership at hours per annum of about 25. This will go up if I have my own plane as I will do some touring and overnight trips. But I see that going to 35 to 40… not to 160!
So this is making veer more towards the Pioneers/Europas/WT9s.
Are you including the purchase costs in your break-even calculations?
I have not, but my rational here is that behind the purchase price you have an asset that you can sell to recover the beer tokens.
EDITED: For typos, for some reason I can’t spell today :)
From what kwlf said, this could probably come down.
I think the big difference is in the 3rd party insurance – far less likely to kill or injure anyone else in a 1-seater.
Also to consider – aircraft with folding wings such as the Kitfox – should be much easier to find hangar space for, and need less of it.
You sound very much like a potential permit aircraft owner to me. Unless you want to fly IMC or hire the aircraft out?
You sound very much like a potential permit aircraft owner to me. Unless you want to fly IMC or hire the aircraft out?
kwlf – After this discussion this is where I am. Although I hold an IMCr I can’t use it in Europe, so I would need to go full IR. To be honest I do not see the point of an IR for the type of flying I can afford to do and I can buy a permit aircraft for the same cost. I also have no interest in hiring it out.
We’ll look forward to seeing what you get… Keep us up to date.
Same with me, Bosco.
Although I am not into plane polishing/pampering much – I’d rather have no plane than park it outdoor. It might be (a bit) different in SoCal, but in general it’s the same anywhere … but, okay my hangar (on a turntable too!) is pretty cheap
My costs (2006 SR22):
Insurance: € 3700 (225.000 hull value, 1500 hours PPL/IR, CRI)
Hangar: € 1700 (in a flying club)
2 × 50 hour inspection, repairs, parts: € 4000 (in 2014). (But i had one with € 9000 in the past, when i repaired/improved many details)
Annual: € 3000 (2014)
Jeppesen, SkyDemon, Rocketrute: € 2800
Here in Germany larger syndicate groups do not seem as popular as the UK. I have had some chats at our club and the faces have been a picture when I have said that back in the UK I used to be in a group of 12 around a C150 and 20 around a PA28 with very few availability problems. (I just wish I had spent more time learning the finances ) And so the most I can seem to raise interest is with one other member; but they want 4 seats and a CofA. I am happy with 2. This is the reason I doing this exercise.
Speaking of syndicates, there are basically two cases (to keep it simple)
In case 1, I personally know of precisely one which is what I would call functioning. The rest range from hassles with a perhaps aggressive dominating member taking the p1ss, all the way to more or less hating each other and some trying to push the other one(s) out, preferably without extracting their share capital on the way out. Then you get maintenance disagreements, and those are tough because in the absence of an agreement covering that, no individual has any power and has exactly two options: fly the aircraft as it is, or walk away from it. Yes; it’s pretty sad. I looked at loads of syndicates in 2001/02 and none were working. Today I know of just the one which gets on, around a Twin Com, comprising of two affluent-enough IR pilots.
In case 2, these tend to work because they are so cheap that if the Annual costs 7k, it is 7k/25 which is next to nothing. Accordingly the members are people who just do short burger runs and are OK with flying junk, because they love to get up into the sky on a sunny day, once a month. Availability can be good on weekdays. The plane is run into the ground but that’s OK because when it falls apart you just get another wreckage and wreck that. This model serves a particular market within GA: the very cheapest way to fly.
If you at all can, buy your own. Nothing gets close. It just costs more money
I know you keep raising that position Peter, and I have heard those stories myself. The two syndicates that I have been in worked very very well. In both syndicates the meetings took place over a coffee in the briefing room, it was relaxed, but we discussed and raise ALL issue that we had and respected each other. That was made clear from the start. There was a neighbouring aircraft, in fact I think they had the parking position next to us, same aircraft type, same age, similar condition… but it didn’t work because of one militant member, and interestingly the meetings were very formal with full power points and arranged timed agendas etc. i.e. the complete opposite to ours. At the end of the day people are looking for the same thing, cheaper flying – it’s a hobby not a job.
I think syndicates are a good way to go PROVIDED that you spend time up front ensuring that you are all like minded, and that the accounts are available and the policy is decided upon and made very clear to new members… then you pay your money and take your choice. I never joined a syndicate unless I could see the books and discuss the flying ambitions of the other members.
I know you keep raising that position Peter, and I have heard those stories myself.
I just like to warn people
But it has also been pointed out here that syndicates seem to work better outside the UK, and that may be true. In some countries (Germany and Switzerland come to mind specially) people seem to be more willing to stick their hands in their pockets, while in some others they firstly look for what they can get out of an arrangement.
PROVIDED that you spend time up front ensuring that you are all like minded
Agreed, this is most important, but this can be difficult to check out in advance. This is almost definitional because nobody with a brain is going to go into such an arrangement (potentially sinking 5 figures into it) with somebody they can’t stand. So non-working arrangements have to be ones where the incoming member(s) somehow got conned – either via their own lack of due diligence on human nature or via the other members putting on a jolly good show (and the latter is guaranteed anyway because they are usually very keen to get rid of the departing member 
)
I agree with Peter.
I think it’s a matter of personality. I for one tend to suffer in such relationships, because the older I get the more stubborn I become and the less I want to even discuss some things. I just want them to be the way i personally like them. And having flown with many other pilots I know that each of them has their own philosophy. I don’t even think that the way I do things is better – but it’s the way I do things and it’s okay for me.
I used to rent my Piper 15 years ago, thinking i could “save” some money. Haha! Nothing could be further form the truth. In the end I gave up, becasue i couldn’t afford it anymore. I quit after i bought the 3rd spinner backplate (€ 400) and when I saw the same guy pushing the airplane back on the spinner.
With me beeing the only owner – I know that I spend a big amount of money, but I get exactly what I pay for.
Maybe I would think differently if I couldn’t afford my own airplane, I don’t know …
I’m almost ashamed to mention the amount of my insurance bill that just came in the mail: 550€ but that is third part only, plus the – mandatory – passenger liability.
My hangar (sic!) cost is even more humble, but that comes with the hassle of unfolding/folding the wings before/after each day of flying, and the associated risk of damage, especially if some newbie absolutely wants to give a “helping” hand.
