Peter – do we agree that the FISO saying “you do not have permission to land” can be misconstrued (doesn’t even need to be misconstrued in fact) as an instruction and as such is illegal per the rules of the air?
Once the PPR has been issued the owner can very well withdraw it by radio but without contravening to the ANO I don’t see how.
@C210_flyer and all others:
In Hungary LHBP Ferihegy is the only civilian controlled airport. Other than that, the three remaining active military airport, namely LHSN, LHKE and LHPA are controlled. LHDC Debrecen and LHSM Sármellék have their CTRs and CTAs charted, but they are suspended by a “permanent” NOTAM. The official charts reflect this by also showing the same areas as class F traffic information zones (TIZ). LHDC is to get controlled airport status along with class D airspace some time in 2017.
There are public airports in Hungary: LHBC, LHBP, LHDC, LHPR, LHNY, LHPP, LHSM, LHUD. These will (have to) accept anyone without PPR and have published procedures in the AIP. NB: Only LHBP, LHDC and LHSM have permanent immigration and customs.
So, LHSM is currently an uncontrolled airport with uncontrolled airspace around. You have to look in the Hungarian AIP AD section for LHSM and read the “Procedures for flights during the operation of aerodrome flight information service (AFIS)” section. The important pieces of information for you as a VFR arrival are found under 2.2.1: “Contact shall be established with AFIS prior to reaching the area boundary” (i.e. it is mandatory to talk to them on the radio) and “When instrument approach is in progress all VFR aircraft operating within the TIZ will be advised to land or hold outside Sármellék TIZ.” It seems that in your case the AFISO advised you to hold. You could have still landed in contradiction with this advice and legally would have been OK with it. You could have also taxied without breaking any rule, by making self announcements. It would have surely pissed off the AFISO and also probably the airport operator. How much? I don’t know, but I’ll ask a friend of mine who happens to be an AFISO at LHSM.
Also, all airports not listed as public officially require PPR. These places usually require you to comply with their operations manual to get the permission to land. These manuals often say that you have to obey whoever mans the radio, if there is anyone. In practice, many airports (including my home field, LHHO) do not enforce the PPR-rule, but you can expect heavy scolding (and possibly much more) if you happen to disregard instruction on a busy day.
As I wrote earlier, I am not aware this has been tested legally in the UK.
Well, I am sure there have been simply unauthorised landings. Plenty of people take the p1ss. Ask any airfield owner.
The ultimate sanction, in the small and very political world of GA, is that you will get kicked off the airfield and your name will be dragged through the dirt. That is how GA works 
I had first hand experience of this with a prop strike in 2002 and the resultant insurance company involvement. So things don’t always follow written rules.
Peter wrote:
The ultimate sanction, in the small and very political world of GA, is that you will get kicked off the airfield
I don’t think that they could do that at a public airport without involving the CAA. And highly doubt that they would do anything with someone landing against AFISO advice if it was otherwise safe and legal.
Again speaking of the UK, there is a Private License and there is a Public License. The former allows discrimination, the latter doesn’t. IIRC, Goodwood EGHR (e.g.) has a Private License and can thus implement such sanctions. Shoreham EGKA has a Public License and cannot (has to treat everyone equally).
One Q might be which airports have a Public License and don’t have ATC. I don’t know.
The CAA is unlikely to get involved with unlicensed airfields at all, unless something pretty dangerous was happening, and – unlike in say France where the DGAC gets well stuck into various ground/club matters – they will never get involved in politics.
Again, this is UK stuff but it illustrates that things are never as simple as they may appear
Presumably the FISO is paid by the airport owner. The airport owner does not want to jeopardize his business with (maybe the only) airline customer he has…. Because if he does lose that customer, there goes your airport…
AnthonyQ wrote:
Presumably the FISO is paid by the airport owner. The airport owner does not want to jeopardize his business with (maybe the only) airline customer he has…. Because if he does lose that customer, there goes your airport…
I just don’t see how a small plane landing 10 minutes before would jeopardize the on-time performance of any airline flight and therefore the business between airport and the airline. I know that many airport operators think this way, but it is totally bullshit. I think that the situation would even be better with controlled airports and airspace. Last week when I took off from LZTT ca. 5 minutes after their daily Wizz Air flight and operated through LZKZ TMA (and almost CTR) when they had two airliners on approach I was pleasantly surprised that the controllers could not be bothered at all by the situation. In fact the LZTT tower controller made it very clear that he was not at all related to airport operations.
Well my first thought after circling for 5 mins and without the traffic in sight, was that once again these European controllers need to be sent to graduate school in the US for further ATC training. But later I realized it was an uncontrolled airport which now I see I had certain rights.
First find out where the other plane is and how far they are from the IAF or the FAF minute wise. I dont want to throw a wrench into the machinery so in the future I will try to reason with them by telling them that I can land and be off the runway in 5 mins tops if the other traffic is not at the FAF or inside the OTR marker. If they are not even at the IAF I will reason but be more forceful since its my gas and expense they are playing with.
Im wondering if the Germania plane wasnt due to arrive at a specific time and they have a policy of keep traffic out 15 mins before the flight Air carrier is due.
Thank you JnsV (JnsV 28-Jun-16 21:55) for clarifying the rules of the road in Hungary.
JnsV wrote:
You have to look in the Hungarian AIP AD section for LHSM and read the “Procedures for flights during the operation of aerodrome flight information service (AFIS)” section. The important pieces of information for you as a VFR arrival are found under 2.2.1: “Contact shall be established with AFIS prior to reaching the area boundary” (i.e. it is mandatory to talk to them on the radio) and “*When instrument approach is in progress* all VFR aircraft operating within the TIZ will be advised to land or hold outside Sármellék TIZ.”
The situation was that when I was asked to hold no instrument approach was in progress since Germania did not even announce on the frequency. Holding for 10 mins is a long time with no other traffic around or anyone else on the frequency. After 7 mins hearing that Germania is approaching the FAF.
JnsV wrote:
There are public airports in Hungary: LHBC, LHBP, LHDC, LHPR, LHNY, LHPP, LHSM, LHUD. These will (have to) accept anyone without PPR and have published procedures in the AIP. NB: Only LHBP, LHDC and LHSM have permanent immigration and customs.
On a different topic. We need a Magyar AOPA because there are only 3 airports with permanent Customs and Immigration two of which are priced out of the market due to landing costs essentially limiting air commerce and the freedom of movement of people and goods which I know the EU is all about.
C210_Flyer wrote:
The situation was that when I was asked to hold no instrument approach was in progress since Germania did not even announce on the frequency. Holding for 10 mins is a long time with no other traffic around or anyone else on the frequency. After 7 mins hearing that Germania is approaching the FAF.
I’ve talked to the above-mentioned friend at LHSM (he was not on duty in the past weeks) and he said that for these purposes they basically consider the airline traffic to be on the instrument approach shortly after leaving their cruising altitude and they would advise VFR flights to hold outside the TIZ throughout that period. The reasons behind this have been discussed further up this thread (commercial pressure from airlines and airport operator). He added that within these constraints AFISOs normally try to be as helpful to GA pilots as possible, but they have no radar and arrival time estimates are often vastly inaccurate. So it may help next time if you stand firmly by your arrival time estimate and can live up to the promise, but it may not be enough. Any pilot is welcome to phone the “tower” before flight to know whether to expect a hold or not.
Im wondering if the Germania plane wasnt due to arrive at a specific time and they have a policy of keep traffic out 15 mins before the flight Air carrier is due.
No, they coordinate with HungaroControl in real time.
We need a Magyar AOPA
I’ll send you a PM shortly.
