HB-JAN wrote:
I don’t have many P46T hours in my logbook, but I noticed that the cabin temperature is very “fresh” above FL220 to 280.
Jetprop or M500/M600/Meridian?
Sebastian_G wrote:
Jetprop or M500/M600/Meridian?
Hi Sebastian, Meridian :-)
A Meridian can get chilly inside, especially when the sun is down. Friday I was a bit cold with outside temp of -48°C. But you have to put it into perspective, nothing like one time in a Seneca crossing the Alps with a failed janitrol heater (and failed oxygen, and a failed prop heat, and icing and clouds below, and some cumulus granitus as well). That was cold. Meridian cold is a minor nuisance compared to such a situation.
There are a few things you can try, but I have heard contradicting advice. From the manuals it seems that setting the temperature control to manual and pushing “warm” on the manual control would maximize heat output. But a longtime Meridian owner told me that he uses “Auto” with the rotary knob to warm to get maximum heat, based on advice from a Meridian guru. I don’t sense a difference between the two by the way.
Also you want to switch the ECS fan to “off” (in the middle between Hi and Low), because that only recirculates air by passing it along the fuselage, which overall makes it lose heat.
For the passengers in the back, the best you can do apparently is using the copilot side windshield defog by pulling the knob out halfway, which gets some warmth to the back.
And as you mentioned, bleed air high gets more heat inside than normal setting. But the noise can get annoying.
Rwy20 wrote:
And as you mentioned, bleed air high gets more heat inside than normal setting. But the noise can get annoying.
That is the way to go. I think all the other methods have minimal effect but putting the bleed air on high will heat up the cabin nicely even at night and -50C outside. Sure it makes a little more noise but with noise cancelling headsets I think it is a lot more comfortable to have warm feet than a little less noise. Also running it on high for maybe 10 minutes seems to heat up the cabin and then the normal setting seems to be able to sustain that for quite some time.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
For me, FIKI would be hands down the thing I’d choose. In the European weather, FIKI means reliability and safety. With the levels the P210 operates, Ice is an issue.
In about 15 years flying experience mostly in Europe as well as a trip to Svalbard and transatlantic Northern route with non-deiced SEP’s, mostly NA, I would say it has not been such an issue.
For me (Spain-based) dispatchability has been 85%. For someone in central Europe perhaps 75%.
In short I would say it is an issue to be managed very judiciously but not a show stopper. In terms of aircraft config, to me climb rate (TC/TN/turbine) is more important.
In about 300hrs with a non-deiced (except prop) piston P210 I have been able to overfly all winter wx including fronts (no out below but if you can climb on top without ice then the rest is typically very doable) , but had to navigate summer wx, (more difficult up high but then there was always an easy warm out below).
HB-JAN wrote:
The heat output seems to be moderate with Mass Flow Control on NORM position. What are your experiences with this, or compared to the other models discussed here?
On the piston P210 there are three versions, from worse to better heating:
-Bleed air post-intercooler (Riley)
-No intercooler (Cessna)
-Bleed air pre-intercooler (Turboplus and, I think Vitatoe)
None of them have a petrol heater, just a bleed air heat exchanger with either outside air cooling or exhaust shroud air heating
If pressurization is good with few leaks our Riley system (the worse one) works great up to -25C. Below that it is a bit weak. Typically it is a self-compensating system as you need high compressor outlet temperature = high compressor pressure ratio, which is higher the higher you go = when you need it most. Typically at FL200, intercooler outlet temp is higher than 70C, which is then post-heated in the bleed air heat exchanger. Descent is typically done with little power reduction so no issue either.
I do find misting/frost at FL200 inside the rear single-pane cabin windows with pax breathing on them, but turning the vent air fan on does away with it except on the coldest days <-20C. Some P210’s are modified with double panes to avoid it.
Rwy20 wrote:
But a longtime Meridian owner told me that he uses “Auto” with the rotary knob to warm to get maximum heat, based on advice from a Meridian guru. I don’t sense a difference between the two by the way.Also you want to switch the ECS fan to “off” (in the middle between Hi and Low), because that only recirculates air by passing it along the fuselage, which overall makes it lose heat.
For the passengers in the back, the best you can do apparently is using the copilot side windshield defog by pulling the knob out halfway, which gets some warmth to the back
Sebastian_G wrote:
That is the way to go
This is exactly how we do it :-)
hmm, my concerns with the Extra500 would be:
- not many were built, how reliable will it be?
- looking at the landing gear, how well does it really handle grass/rough fields? Not every grass strip is manicured…
- T/O and landing distances on grass? Does anyone have data/POH?
@flyingfish, I am following your E400 adventures here on EuroGA, and it seems you is putting A LOT of hours into just managing your E400/keeping it flying
Maybe there is a big difference between E400 and E500 in terms of maintenance hours per flying hours?
The one advertised has 2800h, when is TBO again? 3500h? So I would be looking at a hefty bill in 700h, right?
i just looked T/O and LDG distances up for the Extra500:
T/O-roll ISA MTOW 2000ft, 0 wind: 1330ft paved RWY, +40% for dry grass RWY
LDG: ISA, MTOW 2000ft, 0 wind: 1050ft paved RWY; +15% for dry grass RWY
So landing roll is fine, but T/O roll is very tight for what I envision.
HBadger: Yes, unfortunately the maintenance of my extra 400 is really a lot of work and cost.
The primary issue is clearly the engine. I have only had one failure that is specific to the liquid cooled engine after 600 hours (cylinder) but the bottom end is causing me trouble lately, and that is standard Continental 550 stuff.
As to the extra 500,
I have received first-hand information about reliability and dispatch rate and it seems to be fine.
However performance at altitude is not better, probably slightly worse than that of the extra 400.
Take off performance is also not much better, but
keep in mind the 500 has a higher MTOW, so that may explain why it does not have a shorter roll, despite 100 extra horsepower on paper.
You would get an amazing aircraft, with an interior that is fit for a private jet, especially the cockpit is really nice. I have had private jet pilot to fly with me, and they told me that it was at least as comfortable as in their aircraft, with unusually good visibility in this class.
I would not buy D-FBRS at this turbine hours without the buyer picking up the OH cost… The aircraft was operated commercially, and they must have taken into account an engine reserve in the cost calculations…
