Pipistrel Panthera (combined thread)

CIrrus also works because of the American market. Will a Slovenian aircraft be able to break into that - I doubt it. Not saying it is fair but I just don't think it likely.

€470k is too much. I wonder why so much?

I talked to guys (they are friends of friend of mine who joined me for visit to Aeroexpo) and the streight answer was: We simply can't produce it cheaper. They're currently building number 2, collecting downpayments and hoping for smooth certification path.

Can Pipistrel do what Cirrus did? I doubt it, but perhaps they can build 10-20 aircraft per year and make a profit, I have no clue. Sure there's a market for €400k+ airplanes. But the size of an italian shoe?

I think Pipistrel may be a sign of the market to come - lots of very nice motorgliders and microlights (if you don't need/want IFR capability then why bother with a CS/FAR23 aircraft and the associated costs) being sold, along with a handful of high performance IFR tourers.

Poll: How many on the forum would buy the Panthera over any other aircraft they could select in that same price range?

If (and its a big if) I were in the market for a new plane, yes I probably would buy it over a Cirrus at that price (that kind of money doesn't buy you a FIKI Turbo SR22 out of the factory, ). Still I would rather spend a third of that that on the world's nicest used FIKI TB20/21 or M20R (either of them would suit my normal 2 person mission perfectly).

if you don't need/want IFR capability then why bother with a CS/FAR23 aircraft and the associated costs

ELAs cannot be operated under IFR? That would greatly reduce the utility value of the Panthera.

Still I would rather spend a third of that that on the world's nicest used FIKI TB20/21 or M20R

Of course it's always smarter to buy a used airplane but still there are people that don't want to sit on seats where other people farted in. This is what drives the small remainder of the new aircraft market. Selling 10-20 Pantheras a year shouldn't be impossible and is probably enough to keep the business afloat. In 2019, you can buy a 2 year old Panthera for 300k€.

if you don't need/want IFR capability then why bother with a CS/FAR23 aircraft and the associated costs

ELAs cannot be operated under IFR? That would greatly reduce the utility value of the Panthera.

I was under the impression that ELA1 was just a subset of CS/FAR-23 (a kind of CS/FAR23-lite). A whole load of the bureaucratic rules are dropped, while leaving the actual flight testing/certification standard the same. Effectively the manufacturers have to shift (much) less paperwork, and so the whole thing is much cheaper, while still testing the aircraft themselves to the same standards.

ELAs can be operated under IFR.

I know there is a certain number of self fly hire diehards, and people were even paying £300/hr+ for a "zero equity" SR22 facility (though that business is dead today also) but SFH has a very limited lifespan for the average pilot. For a start, you can't go anywhere on SFH (due to minimum daily billing etc) so any plane which is built for going places isn't going to be of interest.

Peter, I think you are getting this completely wrong, mainly because you only see the UK scene. Here, admittedly, SFH is not an option. I have, however, been renting for 15+ years and have toured in light a/c in Europe, Africa, Australia and, of course, the US. Does need some work (think license validations), but perfectly doable. Just forget the UK. In fact, I would say that if you want to do interesting touring, then renting may even be better, as with your own a/c you tend to always fly pretty much in the same geographical area.

Now to the Pipistrel poll: NO, definitely not. For a variety of reasons, the main ones being - I hate a stick; may be fine for aerobatics, but for a tourer? Fugetaboutit - 500k - for that money I could a Golden Eagle and do some real touring, free from 100LL constraints

I honestly don't know which market they are aiming for. It seems very much to be an engineering-led project, perhaps they just want to have a flagship product everyone is talking about (just looking at this forum, they be on to something), which they don't really expect to sell in any significant numbers. They are, however, an interesting company.

Here in Germany, SFH is very common. Most owners require you to fly a certain number of hours per day rent (often only one!), but this is it. There are plenty of aircraft available, from microlight to KingAir. Same as 172driver, I have flown all over Europe in rented aircraft (mostly as bad-weather-fly-me-home pilot for non-instrument rated self flying businessmen). A few years ago we used to rent a very nice Seneca V (if any Seneca can be called "very nice" ;-) ) for less than 500 Euros an hour (fuel included!). We could have flown more than 1000 hours with it for the purchase price of the Panthera alone - better value for money as far as I am concerned.

And regarding the poll: No. I would not spend 400-500 kEuro for any aeroplane that has no anti-ice. If I had that kind of money to play with, I would buy a nice old Mitsubishi Mu2 for 200,000 Euros and get myself a lot of fun and travel from the other 300,000 :-)

172driver,

you might have got the terminology wrong here. AFAIK, the term "self fly hire" is merely the "british" version of "aircraft rental"...

I know, but I was replying to Peter's post and kept the terminology. Makes no difference.