Cirrus SR20 „opportunity“

Snoopy wrote:

To fly once a week to Italy/Slovenia/Croatia for fun would work in good weather.

Yep, for that this plane is pretty good.

Snoopy wrote:

(sr20 = honest 140 knots)

Depends how you operate it. 145 I’d say and 150 optimum.

Looking at the POH would suggest otherwise.

75% @ 11.6 GPH 65% @ 10.5 GPH:
2000 ft 147 kt……139kt
4000 ft 150 kt……141kt
6000 ft 152 kt……143kt
8000 ft 155 kt……145kt
10000ft…………….147kt
12000ft…………….150kt
Best power

55% 8.4 GPH
2000 ft 130 kt
4000 ft 131 kt
6000 ft 134 kt
8000 ft 136 kt
10000ft 139kt
12000ft 141kt
14000ft 144kt

So the sweet spots are clear:

Speed: 75% 8000 ft 155 kt 11.6GPH 627NM
Range: 55% 14000 ft, 144 kt, 8.6 GPH 785 NM
Normal: 65% 12000 ft, 150 kt, 10.6 GPH, 666 NM

Basically I’d make that 155 high speed cruise, 150 normal and 140 long range.

I’d try the individual airplane as a reference for later. You got all you need in these, FF, TAS and so on. Set the power note the values and work out the fuel and speed bias.

I did that after I got the Aspen and had to notice: The POH is right after all….

TimR wrote:

PDF Page 138 has 14k feet at 34min with a climb rate of 148fpm and deteriorating… not sure you’d make it to 17k in 36min. I used to fly an SR20 and anything past 10k started feeling like a treck

LOL, different POH and different figures :) then the service ceiling should be 14 k and not 17 k like in limitations. That would be limiting indeed.

Most 200 hp planes feel like trucks above a certain altitude, mine is also not very jumpy anymore, but 15000 ft any day. My POH sais 17k service ceiling and tables go to 15k and that is confirmed, but its only 180 hp anyhow.

reasonable speed (sr20 = honest 140 knots)

Check the fuel flow for that number. The TB20 does 138kt IAS on 11.7 USG/hr, at low level, say 2000ft. That is slightly LOP. It is about 60% power and this is how I fly everywhere (low level VFR stuff).

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Well, the manual tells us how long it takes to get to 14000 ft: 24 minutes. 17000 ft is another 3000 ft. The POH gives around 300 fpm at 14000 ft after a MTOW departure and per regs the service ceiling needs at least 200 ftm, so lets say 250 fpm. so 12 minutes to climb to 17000 ft. 36 minutes.

PDF Page 138 has 14k feet at 34min with a climb rate of 148fpm and deteriorating… not sure you’d make it to 17k in 36min. I used to fly an SR20 and anything past 10k started feeling like a treck

TimR wrote:

This may be true but I would caveat this as I can’t even imagine how long it would take you to get there if you have anything other than feathers on-board. My guess would be ~45-50min

Well, the manual tells us how long it takes to get to 14000 ft: 24 minutes. 17000 ft is another 3000 ft. The POH gives around 300 fpm at 14000 ft after a MTOW departure and per regs the service ceiling needs at least 200 ftm, so lets say 250 fpm. so 12 minutes to climb to 17000 ft. 36 minutes.

In my case (M20C) we climbed on schedule to 10’000 and then cruise climbed further as the need arose. at 17000 ft (OAT 0 degrees) it would not budge anymore so ROC was zero. All in all, we climbed about 35 minutes. And the plane was at MTOW on departure and had burnt about 6-7 USG (25 kg) by then.

Maybe you already are, maybe you have already been given the advice….but join COPA. A bit harsh attitudes sometimes, but in general very helpful and extremely large of knowledge. Very US focus, but a few European Cirrus drivers hang around there. Maybe better luck with a price guestimate there. Remember, asking price is one thing, what eventually will be the transaction price can differ significantly, especially in a low volume market, like the Cirrus market outside US.

an owner should always be ready to pay for a new engine

Absolutely; you have to be able to afford any reasonable unscheduled maintenance

Except for what is covered by insurance (e.g. crashing or ditching ).

So, say 20-30k for an engine OH. At the turboprop level it is 10x that. Obviously most of the time this isn’t needed, but if say you join a syndicate and it doesn’t have an engine fund, you should walk away, so why regard the single owner situation differently?

Both airplanes can reach 17000 ft under ISA

I can’t even imagine how long it would take you to get there if you have anything other than feathers on-board. My guess would be ~45-50min

I agree

However, the SR20, with its 2 doors, etc, won’t compare with the single door types for family travelling.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Both airplanes can reach 17000 ft under ISA

This may be true but I would caveat this as I can’t even imagine how long it would take you to get there if you have anything other than feathers on-board. My guess would be ~45-50min

Could be a nice Graz-Croatia commuter :)

On YouTube, I heard « an owner should always be ready to pay for a new engine ». Wise piece of advice
Do you know where it was maintained ?
Do you know where you will maintain it ? Do you know who to ask for the pre buy inspection ?

Snoopy,

given where you are based I had this discussion with other pilots there about an IFR airplane operating out of where you are. Sometimes I did get a bit jealous as you happen to live south of the main mountain ranges so all the sunny spots are available without crossing the Alps all the time. So going South of the Alps, I would say a SR 20 should be capable of most trips without too much trouble. Going North of the Alps, well. A well known aviator operates a pretty old Bonanza from there to central Germany and appears to be pretty happy with it.

From what you say you want to do, travel around with your wife and kids and a bit of baggage, the SR20 has that all important shute and it is likely to be a lot less money invested than a comparable SR22. If Cirri are all you look at. To upgrade your GNS430 to WAAS is about 3000 $ per piece I understand, what AP does it have, the 55x? Whether it is necessary to upgrade directly to the DCF90, well, if you can, sure.

The SR20 has a bog standard Continental IO360-ES, which is basically the same engine power than several others such as the Mooney 201 or the Arrows.

So in order to know what you will get, you will have to extensively play with the POH, which is freely available on the net. I found one which will do for this purpose, apparently a G1.

Take Off performance at MTOW:
The SR20 at PA of 2000 ft and 20°C will take 1805 ft (550m) to get airborne and use 2555 ft (780m) over 50 ft. in Summer heat of 40°C this will be 2079/2920 ft 633/890m respectively
The SR20 at Samedan with 20°C will take 2648 ft (807m)to get airborne and use 3698 ft (1125m) over 50 ft.

At 2500 lb at 2000 ft and 20°C the SR20 will take 1141 ft (350m) to get airborne and use 510m over 50 ft. in Summer heat of 40% C this will be 1314/1912 ft 400/590 m respectively.

Dry grass requires 20% more.

Personally, I find this is not really a lot more than comparable airplanes.

Time, fuel and distance to climb,
the SR20 will reach 14’000 ft from Sea Level in 24 minutes, use 6.8 USG of fuel to do it and travel 60 NM
in comparison
A M20J-201 will reach 14’000 ft from Sea Level in 22 minutes, use 9 USG of fuel and travel 51 NM

Cruise:
The SR20 reaches its maximum cruise speed of 157 kts @ 8000 ft with 11.6 GPH fuel flow (ISA) which results in a range of 627 NM
The SR20 reaches its maximum range of 785 NM at 14000 ft with 144 kts and 8.4 GPH fuel flow.
in comparison
A M20J will reach the maximum cruise speed of 165 kt @ 6000 ft with 12.2 GPH fuel flow which results in a range of 700 NM
A M20J will reach its maximum range of 950 NM at 14000 ft with 150kt and 8.4 GPH fuel flow

Both airplanes can reach 17000 ft under ISA. Having flown the C model up to 22000 ft DA I’d say I can vouch for the M20 but would simply not know for the Cirrus. 17000 ft should be enough for most IFR applications, even 14000 ft should be ample, as long as there are no direct alpine crossings involved. From your position, you should most of the time be able to do that.

I’ve been told before that the SR20 is basically a modern M20J and apart from the range that works out pretty well. Range wise it’s more like an Arrow III.

So, these are some very basic figures from the POH taken with the usual grain of salt. But what I would take from that is that
The SR20 is a 150 kt airplane which usually can travel around 650 NM VFR and maybe 600 IFR.
In the same class you can find the M20J which can travel around 850-900 NM @ 150 kts, so a bit further but otherwise pretty identical in performance, but a lot less comfort and without the shute.
Similar airplanes to the SR20 would also be the Arrow III or possibly some early Bonazas. As I said, both of these are based where you are, you know one owner, you might want to read up on the other.

@boscomantico will know whether the above figures are realistic or not, as I said they are flat out of the POH.

Now the question you have to answer for yourself is, whether that is ok for you.

My take on it is, you can’t do much wrong with an airplane like that. It will deliver the same performance as most airplanes of it’s class, which is the 200-220 hp singles. But it has the distinct advantage of a more comfortable cabin and that shute.

If you need FIKI it obviously is not an option. The way to go if you need FIKI in the same purchas price range would be a Piper Seneca II, which of course has other advantages (spacy, 2nd engine, 1000 NM range) and disadvantages (much higer operating price). Clearly an SR22 is a better airframe in terms of speed and altitude (particularly the Turbo version) but also more expensive to buy and operate. Other FIKI options next to the SR22 would be a Mooney 252 or later with FIKI if you can find one, TB20 or similar.

Therefore the question is always the same: Mission. And as i said I consider where you are based you are in an advantage to most of us in terms of that the way south usually will be quite open to you in an airplane like that. And that is where most of holiday trips go :) But seeing some Graz-Frankfurt commuters and other experiences, I’d say most of what you want can be done with this plane, but not quite as much as with a white eagle which you may wait for all your career and never buy.

So my advice is consider it, work the manual, work the finances through and see what else you can get for the same money and cost and think out of the box on that bit. If you stil think it is worth it, then go for it.