Sebastian_G wrote:
This seems to be the most important sentence of the report which probably explains the rest.
What he means is that prob99 one of the pax planted the device as a prank and wanted to see how the hostie would react. Looks like they got a bit more than they bargained for.
This case shows the statement by Boeing following the SR111 crash in pretty good light:
- If there is an uncontrolled fire on an airplane, it either lands within 20 minutes or the accident is a fact.
The decision of the cockpit crew to go down “right now” and to land no matter what has most probably saved the life of all on board. That they did so hurriedly and did not understand that they came down on a much shorter runway than anticipated is unfortunate, but explainable in the urgency they had.
There have been many airplanes lost to fire where that decision was not taken. UPS6, SR111, SR330 were examples where an immediate forced landing on the nearest airport might have resulted in an overrun but probably most people alive, while they all died in the attempt to do it in a more “orderly” way. SR111 being particularly tragic as the development was slow ans spurious, then escalated very fast.
Obviously, if this was a hoax, then the person doing it belongs in jail.
One can also see the difference between Russian pilot training and many other countries. If it were me, and I was on fire, I’m not asking ATC if I can descent, I’m telling them.
We had a club aircraft that had a fire on board – failed capacitor – and filled the cockpit with smoke. The pilot was downwind in the rather large pattern in GVA and instead of continuing to the runway, she landed in a field. Everyone congratulated her for a job well done, and I agree fully. Both on board walked away, cost a bit for aircraft recovery and nosewheel repair.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
This case shows the statement by Boeing following the SR111 crash in pretty good light:
- If there is an uncontrolled fire on an airplane, it either lands within 20 minutes or the accident is a fact.
Yep. Actually one of my IRI gives me the same about complete electric failure in IMC and 12 minutes.
Actually one of my IRI gives me the same about complete electric failure in IMC and 12 minutes.
That, of course, depends on whether you still have the vacuum pump, or adequate backup battery life, and hopefully a handheld radio which can do ILS 
But for sure an uncontrolled fire will be fatal every time, which is why I always tell everybody to do their fuel pipework properly, with the fireproof hose. There is a culture in homebuilts to not do that; I recall a Eurofox with clear plastic tubing for fuel, and wiring wrapped around the plastic tube (yes, I have a photo of it, which I am not posting).
I’m not asking ATC if I can descent, I’m telling them.
Of course; that aspect was just weird.
eurogaguest1980 wrote:
One can also see the difference between Russian pilot training and many other countries. If it were me, and I was on fire, I’m not asking ATC if I can descent, I’m telling them.
He had good cooperation from ATC so I suppose it just came naturally. ATC helped saving that one by suggesting Kiel as an alternate. Lübeck and possibly Hohn AFB would also have been possible.
The result speaks for itself: Clearly in such cases errors will happen but the outcome is that we have all people alive as opposed to the end result the flights I quoted had. And btw, most of those also used normal ATC rather than “telling them” what to do.
SR111 was in cruise and lost time because they had a situation they did not understand. Fire in the aft bulkhead which initially produced light smoke. Then a AC stub pipe cover melted off and sucked the smoke out, so the urgency was not apparent. When they switched off the cabin bus and with it the fans that sucked the smoke and heat out, within a few minutes the cockpit became totally unusable and they crashed. With 20/20 hindsight, if they had forced the airplane overweight into Halifax, they would maybe have overrun but survived. But they had no way of knowing what was happening.
SR330 had a bomb on board which exploded and filled the airplane with smoke. Instead of forcing it down on runway 34 in ZRH or in Emmen (they were over the Gotthard at the time) using radar, they tried to come back for an ILS at ZRH which at the time was only from the north. They crashed on downwind.
UPS6 was overhead Bahrain when most probably Lithium Ion batteries in the cargo ignited. They decided to turn back to Dubai however. On the way back, all control cables melted, the captain got incapacitated fighting the fire, but the AP was still capable of controlling the airplane. When the FO disconnected the AP, the airplane became uncontrollable and crashed after overshooting the runway at DXB. Had they forced it down to Bahrain within 10 minutes, they would most probably have survived.
There are other examples. A few years before SR111, a UPS DC8 experienced a fire overhead New York state. They forced the airplane down to Stewart airport within 15 minutes, where the airplane burst into flames and was destroyed, however the crew survived thanks to their fast action. Initially, they got a report not unlike the one written by the Germans now, heavily criticizing the crew, but after 111 they realized that their actions saved them.
Also a Swissair MD80 experienced a heavy cockpit fire between Munich and Zurich. They made it back to Munich barely. Again, deciding to take the fastest way to the ground (their homebase ZRH was 3-4 minutes further away) most likely saved them.
So those guys foussed on one thing: Getting on the ground no matter what. Their airplane is the only real casualty apart from the burns the FA received in the incident. Airplanes can be replaced, lives can’t.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
- If there is an uncontrolled fire on an airplane, it either lands within 20 minutes or the accident is a fact.The decision of the cockpit crew to go down “right now” and to land no matter what has most probably saved the life of all on board.
In this case there was actually not an uncontrolled fire. In fact, if I understand the report correctly, after the flare had burned out there was no fire at all. Of course, given the amount of smoke that was not evident so an immediate landing at any cost was the appropriate action. (Also, they did not land within 20 minutes.)
About 3 or 4 years ago we had someone in a (recently overhauled) Ikarus C42 shut the engine off intentionally and land in a field after smoke started to come in from the engine area. I don’t remember the cause, I think it may have turned out to be electrical in the end.
One of his syndicate partners was a bit critical of his actions, but to be honest, I think he did exactly the right thing – shut the fuel off so you’re not potentially fuelling a fire in a plastic and fabric aircraft. His off-airport landing was perfectly good (decent field selected, into wind). If you think you’re on fire, getting on the ground is the absolute first priority. (This one sticks in the mind because we saw his off airport landing, it wasn’t that far away, so we took off in the Auster to look for the aircraft and check everyone was OK. We already had the emergency services on the phone but when I got over the site it was clear nothing was damaged and no one was hurt).
I’m not asking ATC if I can descent, I’m telling them
Same here, and what we were instructed to do on the line… this of course following the Mayday-Mayday-Mayday call giving you latitude to perform any necessary action as required by the situation.
Airborne_Again wrote:
In this case there was actually not an uncontrolled fire. In fact, if I understand the report correctly, after the flare had burned out there was no fire at all.
I understand that one curtain was still burning when the FA got injured by the hard landing.
172driver wrote:
What he means is that prob99 one of the pax planted the device as a prank and wanted to see how the hostie would react. Looks like they got a bit more than they bargained for.
Seeing that someone considers this as a valid explanation I finally understand why playing with handgranades on an airplane is not so far fetched as a cause of death as most Westerners believe.
