Cobalt wrote:
All of the students said that this was MUCH harder than they thought, even though they all had done it comfortably before under the hood. 2 of the 3 struggled, only one pretty much kept flying whatever I told him to, including climbs, descents, turns to headings. Flight-sim kid, that one…
I do wonder about what an effect flight sim experience has here. I had 50 hours on FSX:Steam Edition before beginning PPL training, much of that in IMC because I liked the challenge. I don’t know how much this helped. I don’t want to overestimate the effect this had, it is probably marginal.
what_next wrote:
Thinking one can handle this kind of “Northern European weather” by flying through some clouds during PPL training is very optimistic.
Don’t worry, that is not what I am thinking. Here in north-western Germany especially we have many many days were there is an overcast but not any significant weather, i.e. no rain, snow, lighning. Often not even significant wind (otherwise the clouds would be blown away). On such calm yet cloudy days basic instrument skills would be sufficient for going somewhere.
Peter wrote:
That’s a great thread you found there, Medewok
Thanks Peter. I wondered wheter someone mentioned this topic before. Unfortunately I only found that thread after creating this one and having your forum cleverly list the other thread as similar topic below. 
Peter wrote:
In reality, the clever ones do it and most get away with it, because
they get themselves good well equipped planes
instead of scud running below the cloud, they fly mostly VMC on top
they are smart enough to understand obstacles etc and know the difference between (a) descending over the sea to La Rochelle and (b) doing the same at Zell am See
On a side note, I hope nobody thinks that because of the experience I wrote about at the start of this thread I’m going to start skimming through clouds right after getting my PPL just because it felt easy that one time. On the contrary, as mentioned in another thread my attitude to risk is to minimize it as much as possible. There are too many people counting and depending on me and at 31 years my life feels much too valuable to throw away needlessly.
I will probably remain a VFR pilot for the next couple of years due to heavy restrictions on available time for getting IR training, but the IR is a long time goal for me. Maybe EASA get to tweak these new ratings in the mean time (I am interested in how this Basic IR will work out, for example).
MedEwok wrote:
It also makes the basic PPL a rather dangerous license because people can get into trouble quite soon if they find themselves surrounded by IMC
PPL is dangerous. Statistics show it is more dangerous than driving a car, but a bit less dangerous than riding a motorcycle. Orders of magnitude more dangerous than travelling with the airlines. Also, accidents caused by unintentional VFR flight into IMC does not differentiate between those who have IFR rating and those who don’t. Maybe those who have IFR rating pushes it longer, taking larger chances, I don’t know, but that does not help the issue one bit safety vise.
Besides, in the “bush”, IFR is useless in any case. It will help you fly over it all, but it’s no good actually getting down there. It takes practice to become a good VFR pilot, and it takes a good plane. A robust built, tailwheel, turn on a dime, land in 100 ft will do Seriously, to fly GA as safe that it starts to resemble the safety of an airliner, requires two turboprop engines, two very current pilots with CPL, anti ice, pressurized cabin as a start. Then it requires you always fly in thoroughly planned routes, above the weather and where A and B are airports with instrument approaches. IFR alone is hardly even a part of the equation. Even if you have all that, you still will not be able to get anywhere close to where you can go with a Cub.
It’s time to tone down the pilot, and focus more on the aviator
MedEwok wrote:
This makes descending under a cloudbase here much less risky.
I can’t believe that… You do not even have your license yet and you are already caressing the idea of pushing the limits way beyond what’s legal. That is a bold attitude, but you may not get to be old…
Aviathor wrote:
I can’t believe that… You do not even have your license yet and you are already caressing the idea of pushing the limits way beyond what’s legal. That is a bold attitude, but you may not get to be old…
You seem to have not read my last paragraph in that post. As for the sentence you quoted, I am generalizing, not speaking about what is attributable to me. As an untrained VFR student pilot flying through any clouds whatsoever without an instructor next to me is of course a high-risk undertaking. For a trained IFR pilot descending under an OVC012 or such in East Frisia should be easy, however, as there is nothing whatsoever you could hit (except for other aircraft or birds of course, but I am assuming one is under an IFR flight plan and in contact with ATC when doing so).
Well, I am glad we cleared that up! And I did read the last paragraph.
And I would not descend below a 1200 feet overcast unless there was a published procedure. 1200 feet is very low.
Fact: VFR into IMC is still the #1 killer for private pilots without an IFR rating.
In Germany flying/training VFR in IMC is clearly illegal, and i think, no matter what other arguments there are, i expect a FI to follow the rules.
Training with a PC flight simulator does absolutely not help, it is completely counterproductive. Yes, you can learn to set the avionics or to navigate – but that’s about it. Once you experience vertigo, or fear, on an IMC flight for the first time you will understand the difference.
Learn to fly in VMC first. If you do it correctly you will never have to enter IMC. And it never happens “inadvertently”, it only happens if you decide to fly into non-VMC conditions.
MedEwok wrote:
As an untrained VFR student pilot flying through any clouds whatsoever without an instructor next to me is of course a high-risk undertaking.
I have flown maybe 1000 hours VFR only. Some as student, most as instructor – PPL and CPL are both trained under visual flight rules. I had my gotten own instrument rating before becoming an instructor. During all those VFR hours, I have only once flown into a cloud. In a glider, early in my flying days. The head of the flying school (a very old school guy who had flown FW190s at the end of WW 2) was flying the tug aircraft and saw one of “his” students enter a cloud base. In the evening after all the gliders had been pushed back into the hangar he convened his students and asked who it was he had seen flying into a cloud. Only because I confessed (15 or 16 years old and very red faced…) we all were allowed to stay on the course – he would have sent home the entire group had no one taken the resonsibility. He lectured me (and the rest of our group) for an hour about what could have happened by losing control inside a cloud flying an aeroplane with zero instrumentation. This happened almost 40 years ago but for me it is like it was yesterday.
VFR into IMC is still the #1 killer for private pilots without an IFR rating
Reference?
One might have to carefully extract the Cirrus chute pull cases from the stats… 
Learn to fly in VMC first.
Well, yes.
If you do it correctly you will never have to enter IMC. And it never happens “inadvertently”, it only happens if you decide to fly into non-VMC conditions.
Nonsense. Wx can close up in front of you, and also behind you. Not common but possible.
Peter wrote:
Nonsense. Wx can close up in front of you, and also behind you. Not common but possible.
I would like to understand the physics of weather closing behind someone who moves at 100…200kt (typical speed for PPL driven aircraft). And even then you can make a perfectly legal safety landing at any field you deem suitable – even in places like “over regulated” Germany without fear of facing legal battles. No: A PPL pilot restricted to VFR flying has exactly zero necessity to fly into a cloud. I am the living specimen to prove it
In 8900 hours of flying since 1974 i have not flown into IMC once inadvertently. Roughly one third of my flying was out of Anchorage, AK.
