Flying through clouds during basic PPL training

In 8900 hours of flying since 1974 i have not flown into IMC once inadvertently. Roughly one third of my flying was out of Anchorage, AK

Really?

Yes. We did a lot of scud running and very low level Cub flying, we’d climb and descend through small holes and we flew between layers of broken clouds – but we always avoided IMC. When all that wasn’t possible, we’d drive. In the mountains there’s no fooling around with IMC.

Soooo, what are you flying these days, Dylan_22?

MedEwok wrote:

Please explain why when the MSA is at 800 or even 500 ft. That seems like a lot of space to level off, adapt to VMC and continue VFR for some trained to hold altitude within 50 or even 20ft…

@MedEwok,

Much of what you are saying is superficially attractive. We practice in a simulator, get some real world experience and can then deal with the unknown. The problem is that aviation is an activity of discipline particularly when you are talking about IFR.

While you are right that a little training may make you safe a lot of the time for some inadvertent IMC, it is the rest of the time that is the problem. And sometimes too much familiarisation makes people treat IMC as trivial, which it is not.

Even in an area I know well, in the UK where it is legal, I would not descend IMC below 1000Ft AGL or the MSA whichever is higher unless on a published procedure. The world has many wrecks from trained instrument rated pilots who have decided that ad hoc IMC is a good idea let alone VFR pilots. And I have excellent avionics and synthetic vision, even your wind turbines are shown.

Until you gain more experience you should take it on trust that there is no need to fly in IMC unless you put the plane there. And inadvertent IMC indicates the pilot made a mistake. Yes there is a one in a million world fogs up scenario but is very unlikely as a cautious VFR pilot. This may sound preachy but it is meant as genuine advice.

MedEwok wrote:

Please explain why when the MSA is at 800 or even 500 ft. That seems like a lot of space to level off, adapt to VMC and continue VFR for some trained to hold altitude within 50 or even 20ft…

MSA for IFR can — by definition — not be lower than 1000 ft as it is 1000 ft above the higher obstacle within 8 km.

That said, I would descend below the IFR MSA for landing outside a published procedure (now that it’s legal with part-NCO), but only if I had surveyed the area and decided on a MDA and missed approach procedure in advance.

MedEwok wrote:

Please explain why when the MSA is at 800 or even 500 ft.

First of all I do not understand where you got that “MSA” from or how it is defined. Second of all 500 feet is not a lot and can put you very close to uncharted obstacles, or obstacles that you did not notice on the chart. Even with quite careful planning I would not consider it safe unless, as Airborn_Again, it takes place in an area that has been surveyed and is guaranteed obstacle free.

MedEwok wrote:

for some trained to hold altitude within 50 or even 20ft

That is fine during an exam when your focus is 100% on maintaining heading and altitude. But when you have to look outside, navigate, communicate, it becomes a lot more difficult. And not only does it put you awfully close to terrain, it also puts you awfully close to man-made obstacles. None of them are represented with a precision I would bet my life on, and neither is my ability to navigate precisely around them in difficult conditions.

A lot of people have died coming down through the clouds trying to acquire VMC. One of the most recent examples is this.

what_next wrote:

I would like to understand the physics of weather closing behind someone who moves at 100…200kt (typical speed for PPL driven aircraft).

Not really weather closing in – but decision to turn around made too late when weather is marginal. It can happen in many ways – descending with the cloud base, still not low enough, so turn around – but that turn still takes you about half a mile down-route, oops… and it offsets you by a mile to one side, where there may be cloud, too… and during the turn, altitude keeping is less than great, and again you may end up in IMC.

Of course, the risk averse pilot does not fly in this sort of weather, or turns around earlier… but i would guess most IMC entries happen that way.

And here is a real life scenario that happened to me. I was crossing a broad, shallow river valley in France, and I descended with the cloud base into that valley. Once in (maybe 200ft lower) I could not see the exit on the other side. Not even the hills. So I turned around in VMC, but – guess what – I couldn’t see the exit where I came from (I could see the hills, but couldn’t really tell if/where the cloud base is rising with the terrain. It probably did (that is where I came from) but not something I wanted to risk. A shower blocked the path down the valley, so I landed in a field instead. Interesting two days ensured…

ILAFFT.

Of course all three are easily avoided by not flying in marginal weather.

@Cobalt

shower blocked the path down the valley, so I landed in a field instead. Interesting two days ensured…

Could you / would you please share the further story with us?

Simples. Landed in field, no damage.

The irony was – the next airfield was five minutes down the valley around a bend, all I needed to do was follow the motorway, but a big fat shower was sitting above it. It was veeeery tempting, but I decided that getting into trouble through stupidity was one thing, I didn’t want to add getting into trouble deliberately…

Amazing how many trees, power lines, railway wires appear all of the sudden. I flew a close circuit from overhead the field to land along what looked like ruts roughly into wind, but it turned out to be reasonably smooth. After stopping, I dialled up 121.5, raised an airliner and asked him to report safe landing to ATC and ensure the flight plan was closed (it was an international flight, and I had not been in contact with FIS during most of the flight).

Then we walked to the next road, hitched a ride to the next Gendarmerie, who reported it. The entire station got into a van to have a look… twice that afternoon, second time with a bloke from the local press, who took a photo. A few hours later, the investigators from the DGAC arrived. Another trip out. they checked fuel state, aircraft condition, a bit of paperwork (licenses, flight preparation, insurance etc.), took a statement and then left.

I had rented the aircraft from a flying school, of course I had called the school owner and chiev instructor immediately. He got into his car and arrived next morning. We found a hotel and stayed overnight.

Next day we got DGAC permission to take off again. That took a few phone calls (Gendarmes very helpful, even invited us to a long lunch…). The owner flew the aircraft out of the field to the next airfield and landed there. There he cleaned out some off the mud around the wheels, checked everything thoroughly, filed the flight plan for return to base in Germany and went. I took the car back home.

The school was just fantastic. A few days later I brought some champagne and we drank to the happy return of the aircraft (and mine), and debriefed. They were fully supportive of the decision to land. They charged me a small amount for taking off the spats, cleaning everything and putting it back together, which was (a) fair enough and (b) about an hours worth of flying, and I continued to rent from that school.

A few months later, a letter from the German authorities arrived, the French had asked to prosecute on their behalf, on the grounds that I shouldn’t have been flying in this sort of weather. I could find little fault with their reasoning, wrote a reply outlining how it all unfolded and the lessons learned, and that was the end of it.