a_kraut wrote:
It is as mindless as some Europeans complaints about US American moral concepts of social security, health insurance, crime fighting, weapons, use of military might.
Sorry, I don’t get the analogy…?
It is now my impression that a lot of contributors are suggesting the pilot made a lot of mistakes, that he should not have made. I dont think anyone is disagreeing, including Silvaire.
I think a few of us are saying, a lot of the planning type issues we have to do in Europe are complete nonesense and should not be necessary. The fact is they are, and the fact is, it is very unlikely to change. I think on that we also agree.
I think the article was useful in illustrating never the less how stupid some of the stuff is, and that it doesnt have to be that way. I think it also illustrates why GA is all but dead in some parts of Europe, because a point comes when the hassle out weights the advantages, especially, as in my experience, very few of us actually fly for business ever.
People are simply not going to do things for fun when hassle out weighs fun.
Perhaps strangely, in the 30 years I have been flying it has got worse, not better on balance, and in my view, those elements that have got worse havent achieved anything of tangible benefit or solved a problem that required solving.
If I have one crticism, I dont know why pilots appear to be ok with this stuff, and there is so little comment on this thread about why we should have to put up with this nonesense, because it is that fact alone that makes it even less likely to change. I have to say, that is part of the reason it deosnt happen in the States, which is because they simply would not put up with it.
It is mindless to complain about history because it is a ‘fait accompl’i. Analoguously, it is equally mindless to accuse Americans of the structure and ruling of their society because it is as well a consequence of certain social, political, geographical conditions in the 19th and 20 century. We can disagree, we can position ourselves, we can try to effect something to ‘the better’ by engaging politically, but that’s for it.
a_kraut wrote:
We can disagree, we can position ourselves, we can try to effect something to ‘the better’ by engaging politically, but that’s for it.
Quite true, although in some circumstances (not these) it perhaps take a little more 
The suffragettte movement is a good example where everything you suggest had been tried, but it wasnt enough, and the extra push was justified.
@Fuji: agreed: “If voting changed anything, it would be made illegal”. But as I get older, the North of my trusty old moral compass gets more and more unreliable.
I dont know why pilots appear to be ok with this stuff, and there is so little comment on this thread about why we should have to put up with this nonesense, because it is that fact alone that makes it even less likely to change.
It is called “resignation”
I have to say, that is part of the reason it deosnt happen in the States, which is because they simply would not put up with it.
They have a powerful AOPA…
The reason there is little support for GA in that part of Europe is partly that there isn’t much of it. The old communists are normally quite good at extracting money from customers That area is really quite poor. Former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, are all really poor countries compared to say Germany or Switzerland where you see posh airfields with posh restaurants, and posh hangars for which the residents stuck their hands in their pockets to the tune of 4-5 figures each. The UK should be like that too but the residents sit around waiting for somebody else to pay for it The wealth in that part of Europe is mostly in the hands of politicians, criminals, a few successful businessmen, politicians, the church, and criminals. And those with real money fly jets, two crew, and everything “just works” for those customers.
Another thing is that those countries were not free for many decades if ever (I come from Czechoslovakia so I know the “scene”). GA as we know it is a product of not just high income (I know not everyone in GA has a high income but those who have are basically supporting the infrastructure for the others) but also of a very free culture. No proper dictator would allow people to fly around.
Getting back to that journey, if the guy had a decent plane, he could have flown Germany – Croatia (LDDU) and then LGKV. From LGKV back to LDDU. That leg is slightly over 300nm each way. Avgas at LDDU of course – Croatia is easy. With a plane with a ~300nm usable range, the route would be down to say LJLJ, LDDU, LGIO, LGKV. This not rocket science, if one has the slightest clue about planning a flight.
alioth wrote:
VFR flightplans for international flights are hardly an impediment and won’t discourage anyone from flying.
Obviously I disagree I simply wouldn’t fly if flight plans were often necessary, and I think you might be surprised how much more attractive flying would be to prospective aviators if they weren’t necessary for most international flights in Europe.
The same goes for pointless ATC contact, negotiating en route routes in uncongested airspace etc. I just wouldn’t be interested. There are some bright spots within some countries and I think if Europe would stop shooting itself in the foot, for example if the national ultralight culture that you see in places like Italy opened up to allow no hassles continent wide flying, you’d see substantial growth in activity and Europe would be leading in something useful, and not serving as a regularly published example of how not to operate aviation infrastructure.
BTW I think the bigggest real, fundamentally hard to solve issue for European international flying in light aircraft is cross border language proficiency. The rest of the ‘issues’ are artificial and pointless, and I agree they’re the product of history, not philosophy (as somebody once said 
)
Silvaire wrote:
Obviously I disagree I simply wouldn’t fly if flight plans were often necessary, and I think you might be surprised how much more attractive flying would be to prospective aviators if they weren’t necessary for most international flights in Europe.
There were numerous occasions when you had to give 48 hours notice of going to the CIs I would have gone, but didnt, and so went to France instead.
There have been numerous occasions where, filing a FP AND the Gendec has been enough to persuade me just to go somewhere in England, and I have to say, I am pretty good at filing both. OK, I know it is lazy.
Silvaire wrote:
The same goes for pointless ATC contact
To be fair you can go from one end of the UK to the other without talking to anyone and pretty much the same goes for France. I agree it is more difficult, or impossible in other countries.
Silvaire,
I really don’t know whether you are on purpose not getting the point of what this guy did or you just want to keep on telling us how great the USA is for flying. If it’s the latter, then we all know. I’ve flown there, it is great, it is easier in most points but this has NOTHING to do with what this guy wrote and did.
- You bemoan the fact that you need a flight plan for certain flights. Well, last time I looked you need to file a flight plan to fly IFR in the US as well and this guy was flying IFR.
- You keep going on that this is comparable to state to state travel in the US and I have to say clearly, NO IT IS NOT. State to state travel means within the US of A not outside. The closest thing we have to that in Europe is flying in the Schengen area. This flight not only went outside the Schengen Area, which is quite big and within which most flights ARE close to what you do in the US, he went also outside the EU and back. The incident where he landed outside the EU due to fuel planning issues was one country which is NEITHER in the EU nor in Schengen. So this is like a flight from the US to Canada or Mexico or Cuba or whereever you want.
- To fly internationally from the US to elsewhere and back requires a LOT more hassle than what Serbia and most EU countries ask. To fly from Schengen to Serbia and back requires valid identity papers and the use of an airport of entry and a flightplan. In the US, you need to get a VISA to fly your own plane into the US, you need to complete TSA stuff and you need to apply for ESTA and whatever not quite some time before. If you fly into the US without any of this, I don’t think you are gonna fly a lot in the near future and will have the law on you. And there is not much wrong with that, it is set out in rules and regulations for anyone to see.
- The flight this guy did from Greece (Schengen/EU) into Serbia required nothing but the use of a AoE and a flight plan. Belgrade likes it if you call ahead but they are very lenitent if you don’t. But what is not part of that bargain is to land on a Serbian military strip because you are too stupid to calculate your trip fuel. I don’t want to imagine what would happen if I land at a USAF base because of such a blunder unnanounced and on an international flight. Clearly, the Serbs saw it VERY pragmatically by not only not prosecuting the guy but actually helping him. I would not be sure the same applies if he had landed on a military base in some EU countries who take their security a lot more seriously. Not to speak of the fact that feelings in the Serbian air force towards Americans might be ambigious to say the least, as they had most of their airforce bombed to cinders by Clinton….
There are many things which need addressing in Europe and Greece particularly but this guy managed to miss almost all of them in his piece of uninformed writing. Why you keep holding up for a guy who imho does not deserve to have the privileges of an international airman is beyond me. He is a disgrace and what he did is damaging GA. That AOPA lets him get away with this means the US AOPA is equally clueless. That is not what I expected.
