Flying IFR in G airspace is allowed. See: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Classification_of_Airspace where it is specified.
As G airspace is uncontrolled airspace, you cannot even get a clearance for flying there from ATC as they have no control over that airspace. It is, however, not always an easy job to do fly IFR in uncontrolled G airspace without a clearance as ATC just does not expect this and thus it leads to discussions on the radio.
The Dutch AIP (not the same as the law, unless referred to the AIP in the law for further details/clarification) used to state 2000 feet as the minimum altitude for flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace. I could not find it anymore. It states now the following:
ENR 1.3
SUB 2.2 IFR flights operating outside controlled airspace
IFR flights operating outside controlled airspace in the Amsterdam FIR shall:
Be capable to establish two-way radio communication with the appropriate ATS unit (see ENR 6-2.2).
All motorised aircraft flying below Schiphol TMA 1 are strongly recommended to maintain listening watch on Amsterdam Information 124.300.
Pass position reports on entering or leaving the Amsterdam FIR and when so required by the relevant ATS unit (see also ENR 2.2 paragraph 3.4.2 and 3.4.3).
Position reports shall contain the information as stated in paragraph 2.1 and in addition, when entering the Amsterdam FIR:
ETA at the destination aerodrome if situated in the Amsterdam FIR, or
ETA at the intended position of leaving the Amsterdam FIR.
-—————————————-
But in the Aerodromes part, it might still say the following with regards to e.g. Ameland: Types of traffic permitted (IFR/VFR): VFR
So, my conclusion is that it might not be illegal, but not very practical to do in many countries in Europe. In the UK, you can declare yourselves as flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace and you can depart from a grass airstrip IFR. Technically or legally, that might be right and practically can be done that way in the UK. In the rest of Europe, it might not be illegal but is unusual at least.
Thanks for clarification 172Driver, so if you go ifr into cloud in G airspace it means emergency?
I come across this legal case, it mentions you need atc ifr clearance to get into imc in class G, I bet that will be tough to get ;)
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3935.pdf
Does the US prohibit IFR in G? This has come up numerous times.
In the US you need an IFR clearance to fly IFR, but nobody can issue a clearance for anything in G.
What has happened, IIRC, something like this, is that a non IR holder was busted by the FAA for flying in IMC in G. But they busted him not for doing that; they busted him for not having filed an IFR flight plan (which he could not have done, not having an IR).
@Ibra: interesting legal case.
As we said in Administrator v. Vance, 5 NTSB at 1039, “a pilot
departing from an uncontrolled field in instrument conditions but
without a clearance has no assurance that VFR conditions will
prevail when he reaches controlled airspace.” And furthermore,
this type of takeoff “also create[s] the hazard of a collision
with other aircraft. The see and avoid concept would be
nullified and there would be no other means of assuring
separation from other aircraft.”
The situation in the UK is different and flying without clearance IFR and in IMC in G airspace has been a common practice there for many years and without mid-air collisions happening in that time period and while flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace. In The Netherlands, I could imagine a court case to go into the same direction as this legal case as you mentioned.
172driver wrote:
There is no – legal – IMC flying in Class G in the US. The minimum vis is 1 mile, clear of cloud. The UK IMC in Class G is unique, AFAIK that doesn’t exist anywhere else.
IFR is legal in class G in the US. Departures and approaches to non towered airports usually begin and end in class G airspace. In most of the country, class E begins at 700 to 1200 AGL, but there is some class G airspace that tops out at Class A at 18000 MSL, but for the most part cruising IFR flight in high class G airspace, although legal, is largely academic. Each departure I make in IMC or approach in low conditions at my airport KUZA, transitions thru class G airspace. I can legally be IMC and zero-zero for departure and complete a landing after an ILS approach as long as flight visibility is 0.5 SM or greater at and below the 200 foot DA. To land at my airport with minimums, I need to take advantage of the MALSR system to get me close enough to see the threshold lights to complete the landing. So if I pickup the flashing sequencers and some of the approach row lights, I will continue to 100 AGL and if I see the threshold lights by then, complete the landing.
172driver wrote:
The UK IMC in Class G is unique, AFAIK that doesn’t exist anywhere else.
It it very clearly permitted by both EASA rules (SERA) and the international Rules of the Air.
It is common practise in Denmark. Finland, Norway and Sweden — also for scheduled commercial air traffic. As I understand it it is also normal in France and — to a limited extent because of airspace structure — in Germany.
Arguably it works even better in Sweden (and the other Scandinavian countries) than in the UK because it is fully supported by the national ATS system. In Sweden FIS in class G is provided by ATC for the controlled airspace above. You can fly IFR in and out of controlled airspace and not really notice except for the traffic information given when you are about to enter class G – typically “No traffic reported in uncontrolled airspace.”
Peter wrote:
Does the US prohibit IFR in G? This has come up numerous times.In the US you need an IFR clearance to fly IFR, but nobody can issue a clearance for anything in G.
What has happened, IIRC, something like this, is that a non IR holder was busted by the FAA for flying in IMC in G. But they busted him not for doing that; they busted him for not having filed an IFR flight plan (which he could not have done, not having an IR).
It is legal to operate under IFR and in IMC in the US. You do not need a clearance to fly IFR in class G, by definition.
The pilot was busted for being careless and reckless. He had a valid instrument rating and was IFR current. To fly in class E, one needs to have obtained a clearance and to have filed a flightplan, although the latter can be an abbreviated form, for example a verbal request. He was departing an airport in class G, but had to climb to class E to get to a minimum IFR cruise altitude. The airport had approaches, so class E begins at 701 AGL. Even though he expected to be in visual conditions before entering class E, he would not have met the cloud clearance requirements (1000 feet above) to be VFR in class E and was a hazard to IFR aircraft that might be making an approach to the airport. Airports with IFR operations that begin/end in class G are handled one in/one out principle. The IFR clearances apply to operation within class E and the procedure of one in-one out at an airport in class G supports separation of IFR traffic from other IFR traffic. There isn’t any separation of VFR traffic from IFR traffic at an airport in class G, but VFR is an available when the visibility is one SM or greater and clear of clouds.
AeroPlus wrote:
The situation in the UK is different and flying without clearance IFR and in IMC in G airspace has been a common practice there for many years and without mid-air collisions happening in that time period and while flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace
In the UK most airfields in G-airspace are very familiar with these departures/inbounds, some A/G stations actually help coordinating with ATC while you are on the ground (or even call by phone a radar equipped ATS to check status and give some traffic info for you)
t works really fine as long as you have a LARS radar for a quick traffic or deconfliction service, this is the case around London TMA: ATS tend to complain when you fly all around the place in IMC between MSA=2300ft and 2500ft=TMA, say for 2h training flight instead of going away, get to VMC or entering controlled airspace
Also, while the density of traffic is really low things gets a bit shaky when ATS reports “non identified traffic” heading to the same VOR….
First of all, I wrote IMC not IFR. Although they often go together, not the same thing.
That said, I stand corrected – you can fly IMC in Class G in an IFR equipped airplane and you must be instrument rated. I was only aware of the departure/arrival situation, but not of the enroute phase being legal. ILAFFT…….
FWIW: On the original topic of the missing video, the legal situation is that it cannot be re-posted by someone else, other than a small piece under a Fair Usage Policy (not sure if this is a UK only thing). And this is not affected by whether it was originally taken down by the owner, or not.
