NCYankee wrote:
The tower was extremely professional in my opinion.
Someone please correct me on this..
The controller first instructs “keep your downwind inside the lake”, then a few seconds later “make a hard turn, remain west of the lake”.
The lake’s west bank is 1NM from RWY centerline.
Next, the controller is surprised to find the Gulfstream unable to do a 180 turn in 1 NM and overshoot.
Also, way too much information. I am sure I would be overwhelmed. It starts with traffic information for an aircraft that is behind the Gulfstream and continues from there. If the controller sees that the pilots are confused, he would better suggest headings and keep the rest to himself. That would be safer IMO.
Great input NCyankee.
To me this looks like the pilot didn’t know any of this and thought he could depart VFR and pick up his IFR clearance a few miles down the road, like he probably can in Europe.
But there is also the missing comms between him and the tower… what exactly did he say and what did they say to him?
NCYankee wrote:
The tower was extremely professional in my opinion. The jet pilot was not,
Totally agree. These pilots are morons.
ATC asking pilot who just took off to land and pick up clearance on ground?!? ATC getting info that aircraft can land only after wasting fuel for 5 hours and not doing anything with that info?!? ATC not knowing/understanding where LGAV is?!? Highly professional 
not. I’ve never flown myself in US and I appreciate explanations on pilot mistakes here but ATC should coordinate in such case with next sector in their best interest to get rid of unnecessary traffic in CTR.
Emir wrote:
ATC asking pilot who just took off to land and pick up clearance on ground?!? ATC getting info that aircraft can land only after wasting fuel for 5 hours and not doing anything with that info?!? ATC not knowing/understanding where LGAV is?!? Highly professional not. I’ve never flown myself in US and I appreciate explanations on pilot mistakes here but ATC should coordinate in such case with next sector in their best interest to get rid of unnecessary traffic in CTR.
Give me a break. So the controller is supposed to know where LGAV is? Exactly how many controllers in Croatia will know where KPSM is? It is a port of entry. It is not uncommon in the US for controllers to not know airports outside of the local area. I even get asked occasionally when an airport is not known to the local facility. Usually they will know major US destinations and those in their local area.
PIlots should not be asking a tower controller to give them an IFR clearance when they are airborne, they have more important things to do. Exactly, how is a controller supposed to coordinate a VFR flight plan when there isn’t one filed and a departure request does not indicate where the aircraft is going? VFR is not permitted in Class B airspace without a prior request and clearance. Boeing Clearance delivery is 132.4 and should be contacted on the ground before contacting ground control for taxi. If they don’t then there is simply no IFR active flight plan. The tower is responsible for controlling traffic in their class D airspace and it is not their job to handle issuing IFR clearances. I have never heard of a tower issuing an IFR clearance to an airborne aircraft. If an IFR clearance was issued by clearance delivery, it will be coordinated with Seattle Departure. If the pilot contacted clearance delivery and indicated they wanted to depart VFR thru the class B, they should have done this on the ground. Anything else is very unprofessional. Departing VFR and picking up a clearance when airborne is a common thing, but not with a tower. It is never assured that the service will be provided and it carries extra risk in the US. Using this a means of beating the system when an IFR departure may take longer, is less than optimum and carries the risk of not getting the clearance when airborne and potentially involving flight into IMC conditions on a VFR flight.
There was a case of a pilot at a non-towered airport received an IFR clearance but was told to standby for a release which was expected to take some additional time. The pilot departed VFR into VMC conditions. He then contacted departure control after he was away from the airport. He received a pilot violation and a suspension of his certificate.
Thanks @NCYankee, you just saved me from writing pretty much exactly the same. In addition I’d say the controller did an amazing job getting these sub-par ‘pilots’ into the IFR system by essentially letting them depart again (low approach) and then sending them on their way. All that said, we still don’t know what was said on the clearance delivery / ground frequency, which may (may!) explain this mess-up.
loco wrote:
The lake’s west bank is 1NM from RWY centerline.Next, the controller is surprised to find the Gulfstream unable to do a 180 turn in 1 NM and overshoot.
Lake Washington’w west bank is 2.3 NM from the runway center line, The maximum permissible speed below the class B is 200 knots. At 200 Kts, it would require a 27 degree bank angle to stay at or inside the west bank. A slower speed should be maintained to reduce the turn radius and bank angle requirement.
91.117 (c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots
The takeoff communications are less than optimum. The pilot has requested and acknowledged he wished to fly a right hand pattern, not a right hand departure. Flying the pattern includes the initial climb and then a cross wind leg, followed by a down wind leg, a base leg, and a final to a low approach or a landing. The pilot’s do not appear to have been using the right terminology for the departure. I think they should have asked for a RH departure to a northerly heading and not a right hand pattern which is a totally different request. Flying the pattern is used to remain in the pattern. A right hand departure to a northerly heading is another request as would be a right hand downwind departure to a southerly heading. VFR departures for this class of airspace are not normal, particularly with the over hanging class B.
NCYankee wrote:
So the controller is supposed to know where LGAV is?
Without disagreeing with the rest of your message, I don’t think it is an extraordinary feat for a controller of an airport with intercontinental traffic to know what continent an airport is, from the first letter of its ICAO code; that’s all you need to know a general direction from the USA. Does (s)he need it in her job? Absolutely not, the first few points of the route on the flight plan (if not the departure SID…) will give the direction of departure, and that’s all what they need to know. Still, it would be aeronautical “general knowledge”.
To re-state the obvious, there is something missing from the start of the video. I reckon the controller never even saw the flight plan.
