How to generate a route EGKA-LIMW-EGKA without landing?

I am revisiting this

The route above from A-A is 1056nm as filed so not really doable

If one could get a shortcut to avoid MURRO that is still 975nm

The shortest option, if one departs the UK VFR and then really pushes for every shortcut possible is 944nm

Half the route is 464nm which comes to 928nm if one could come back the same way

but can one file that? Well, yes, using some DCT hacks, but would France allow this to be flown? I think they probably would.

Does any French ATCO know? Perhaps @Guillaume?

I appreciate your input @Guillaume but this is not (necessarily) a “circular flight” which is what that AIC is for.

Your PDF states that 2 days’ notice is required for a nonstandard route, and it contains some very useful email addresses for French ATC, but I am sure this route can be flown using standard validated sections. And it can be:

The curious thing is that this route, which I flew in October, still validates!

LIMW N0152F100 SPR/N0152F100 IFR A1 DJL A6 SOMDA B13 ARSIL G40 VATRI B3 BILGO H20 XORBI H40 NEBRU/N0150F120 H40 ABB N20 KUNAV/N0149F070 DCT WAFFU EGKA

and that was exactly my question.

So why can’t one generate a route EGKA-CERVI (which is close to LIMW) and then CERVI-EGKA with the above route?

The outbound route also works fine, on a very similar route

EGKA N0152F100 SFD DCT RIBGO DCT RINTI B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL B13 SOMDA A6 DJL A1 LISMO VFR LIMW

I went back to square one and autorouted a route EGKA-CERVI-EGKA, which produces this nonsensical result

and then threw it away in the Autorouter and edited the two above routes in its place i.e.

N0152F100 SFD DCT RIBGO DCT RINTI B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL B13 SOMDA A6 DJL A1 LISMO VFR CERVI SPR/N0152F100 IFR A1 DJL A6 SOMDA B13 ARSIL G40 VATRI B3 BILGO H20 XORBI H40 NEBRU/N0150F120 H40 ABB N20 KUNAV/N0149F070 DCT WAFFU

but it doesn’t validate even though the two halves validate individually, and the only difference is in the VFR segment

(R)PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA EG:F095..F999 IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EG4082A] EG APP3 LONDON GRP,FARNBOROUGH GRP, EGHH
(R)PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA DJL LFFFUJ IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[LS2509H] LSAGN
(R)PROF204: RS: TRAFFIC VIA KUNAV IS ON FORBIDDEN ROUTE REF:[EG2795B] KUNAV

After some fairly obvious hacks, this validates:

N0152F090 SFD DCT RIBGO DCT RINTI B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL B13 SOMDA A6 DJL A1 LISMO VFR CERVI SPR A1 DJL IFR A6 SOMDA B13 ARSIL G40 VATRI B3 BILGO H20 XORBI H40 NEBRU/N0150F120 H40 ABB VFR N20 KUNAV DCT WAFFU

Then I went to look at doing a VFR departure to say BILGO, to avoid that dogleg to RINTI but this proved to be elusive. A slight hassle was that in the Autorouter you can’t change an IFR dep into a VFR dep, in the route editing feature, so one has to do a short IFR leg OCAS and then chuck in another WP and change to VFR; a standalone facility for validation would actually be easier to use; I used to have one but the agency running it blocked access after a while I did it eventually, by doing VFR at the UK end also for both legs (which, with Shoreham, reflects the reality anyway) and this result is really perfect; AFAICT one can fly VFR across France from KUNAV to BILGO (?)

N0152F040 SFD VFR DCT KUNAV DCT ABB/N0152F090 DCT BILGO IFR B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL B13 SOMDA A6 DJL A1 LISMO VFR CERVI SPR A1 DJL IFR A6 SOMDA B13 ARSIL G40 VATRI B3 BILGO H20 XORBI H40 NEBRU/N0150F120 H40 ABB VFR N20 KUNAV DCT WAFFU

I can do a flight around the mountains as needed because that whole bit is within the VFR segment.

I now just need good wx, and a way to do it within the UK restrictions, with a fallback to refuel on the return leg and do that all before Shoreham closes at 6pm. It opens 9am and while one could depart earlier with permission there isn’t enough light on the runway until about 8am.

Here is the Flitestar plot – 862nm and definitely flyable on any reasonably calm day

It assumes no shortcuts allowed by ATC, which is probably about right for France where the military areas are very nearly absolute no-go regardless of activity. So I may be able to improve a little.

The “total fuel 87 USG” in the above image is nonsense; the TB20 model is rubbish. On 862nm, FL100 across the flat bits and then FL160 over the Alps, the fuel burn would be below 70USG (usable 86.2). Airborne time about 6.5hrs.

The ones east of Paris seem to be 24/7, at all levels I have ever flown at, and the Paris TMA is a no-go below FL200. So, east of Paris one always flies within the same corridor, with practically no deviations (within maybe 1-2nm). I have had exceptions, when I really pushed (due to headwind etc) but they were very unusual.

What also interests me is whether KUNAV-BILGO is OK VFR and whether it can be done above FL120. Much of France doesn’t allow VFR above FL120 (Class D) by notam. Normally I would fly at FL100 but if I get IMC < 0 then I will be looking at a climb to VMC. I’ve been looking at the VFR chart and the typical route I get (IFR) runs DJL-VATRI-REM and that does actually clip the Paris TMA (7 and 9) and just clips the military areas to the east of it.

Indeed; an excellent Q.

What concerns me is running out of airport opening time, and having to stay overnight, which would complicate things (and my camping gear is not good enough for Italy in the winter ).

OTOH if stopping for fuel, one could fly both ways flat out.

Can anyone from France comment on whether KUNAV-BILGO is OK VFR and possibly whether it can be done above FL120.

For VFR I can’t see anything obvious on the charts that would be a problem.