dutch_flyer wrote:
In what sorts of circumstances would they be able to help?
They can help you if you (or Autorouter) have difficulty finding a reasonable route as they can force a flight plan into the system, disregarding the rules.
I wonder how long it will be until all this antiqued IFR route approval stuff will be gone, and with appropriate technology the standard procedure becomes to just take off, call up some frequency on radio and fly where you want to go. Then the next step beyond that is to eliminate voice communication and just go, IFR or VFR, with on board tools and ground infrastructure to make it work.
A guy can dream 
The issue with the eurocontrol Flight Plan system is that it was designed in the 90ties with a polygon limited system to create all layers of airspace. It works quite well for higher altitudes. It has its problems with the lower airspace with a very complex non harmonised European airspace system (look at all the AIPs and you know enough). Also the SID/STARS have limited depiction in the flight pan system. Then you have the military who want to fly ad/hoc with the whole TRA-TSAs, the Routes in one way both ways limited in levels, RAD restrictions etc… Every country has a variety on the whole set-up. Last but not least the UK airspace is even a complete odd ball…All ANSPs Military and civil in Europe want to do there thing and often politics plays a role
All in all we can’t complain and when Achim started his endeavour with autorouter several years ago I pointed him to some people to get things moving with a B2B connection. I have been delivering consultancy for eurocontrol for 12 years not anymore since end 2018. Its not the organisation who is at fault (although it may have some deficiencies in producing too much paper :-)) but the lack of authority and unification on European level to everything related to Airspace Management including ATC..Eurocontrol covering the ECAC area has no authority and never had….BTW I got a DCT of 240Nm three weeks ago… I can’t complain :-)
I’ve been using Autorouter to/from Ireland but flights crossing the UK offered by “Autoroute” invariably produce some crazy result, even if I put in some sensible fly-by waypoints. This sort of thing for LFRC-EIKH, for example:
So what I’ve been doing is using “Edit” and insert manually my desired route, which usually gets validated after a few tweaks. This may or may not be largely outside controlled airspace in the London and Shannon FIRs.
This feels like a rather strange workaround, making the results from Autorroute largely irrelevant. but seems to work …..
I believe there is plan to modernise the eurocontrol infrastructure IFPS etc… Not sure how much covid put a halt to these plans…..Changing technology from 90s legacy systems to the latest is for a lot of big companies a big challenge on data management the next coming years…….
I just tried and it works fine, probably related to Danger Areas? or FL to stay in CAS?
Of course you can disregard UK/ROI SRD routes and just insert any DCT in UK Golf airspace as long as you know the AT. frequency to call on the other end (in your case it’s easy, Jersey TMA then Dauville for approach) and call Plymouth for the Danger Area crossing
Silvaire wrote:
I wonder how long it will be until all this antiqued IFR route approval stuff will be gone, and with appropriate technology the standard procedure becomes to just take off, call up some frequency on radio and fly where you want to go. Then the next step beyond that is to eliminate voice communication and just go, IFR or VFR, with on board tools and ground infrastructure to make it work.
We are slowly getting there. D-ATIS, PDC (pre departure clearance) etc are a reality already, non-voice comms will prob90 come to GA via ADS-B IN soon also.
Thanks Ibra, your second example above is the sort of route I would be hoping for but I see seldom produced by “Autoroute”. Sure, UK danger areas may interfere with minimal overhead. But even playing around with inputting must-fly waypoints e.g. Brecon and Berry Head and avoiding all possible danger areas and varying flight levels to stay in or out of CAS does not necessarily result in a sensible routing (in this example, routing around by the Scilly Isles). Accepting the long Autoroute when filing means carrying fuel for that route plus IFR reserves, rather than fuel planning based on an assumption that a more rational route will actually be given.
Having ticked (or not) the “Prefer standard routes (UK/Ireland)” option in autorouter makes all the difference in the UK.
I seriously do not understand why all the games around IFR routing in Europe.
I looked into this in a great detail a while ago.
The key differences are these:
- Many countries in a relatively small area of airspace
- Many different ANSPs in a relatively small area of airspace
- Many different funding models for ANSPs in a relatively small area of airspace
- Major airports that are quite close to each other and have a very small number of runways that are highly (or in some cases fully) utilised
- Each country has its own military/defence requirements
- Eurocontrol needs contingency plans to re-route aircraft in-case of staff industrial action/defence issues/state issues, etc.
- Job protections/assurances for people working in all of the above.
- Different languages/culture/legal/political systems
All this combined has made the wider system very complex and expensive (per-mile-flown) to run.
There has been work to create things like the Single European Sky to harmonise/optimise airspace and reduce fragmentation, but despite such efforts, even one country recently left the EU/EASA/EGNOS and has little prospect of re-joining anytime soon.
