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Interaction with ATC in Class G airspace

Honestly, flyin in the UK trying to avoid everything can be next to impossible.

Try planing any flight of any distance in the UK, under VFR (where you need to assume that you won’t be cleared through controlled airpace, and obviously can’t even ask to go through the class A). Often you can’t fly much higher than 2500ft, and even if you can, it’s not worth it because you can’t stay up any higher for very long.

Then you end up trying to avoid so many small airfields, microlight strips, ATZs, glider sites etc, that your track looks like a spider on drugs. It doesn’t suprise me at all that many pilots will fly VFR through the IAPs. They take up a lot of space, and often its a choice of which “bad area to fly in” should I choose. 2000ft above a small airstrip or through a IAP.

At this stage I tend to have my “routes” through the UK. Tried and trusted ones that help me avoid too much hassle (like down through Wales and across the Channel Islands). They allow me to avoid the worst of the airspace, and stay high. But depending on the destination, sometimes I have to follow the drunk spider

EIWT Weston, Ireland

dublinpilot wrote:

2000ft above a small airstrip or through a IAP.

Is 2000 ft above a small airstrip a problem? I would expect the traffic circuit to be no higher than 1000 ft above.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

It is a problem in the UK. Traffic generally does an “Over head” join in the UK.

This means that they start their joining proceedure at 2000 above aerodrome level (so higher than 2000AMSL). So flying at 2000ft over an airfield puts you directly into conflict with joining traffic.

EIWT Weston, Ireland

Any source, please? Excuse my scepsis, but I thought one is never even obliged to call FIS at all; far less to inform them of any change in intentions or actions. That it is good airmanship is beyond argument, of course, but I cannot imagine a formal obligation. That said, I have repeatedly found myself unable to talk to them, for one example when leaving EBBU FIR near Büllingen they could never receive me even from 4000’ AMSL. Was I then really leaving the FIR illegally?

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. You don’t have to call a FIS out of controlled airpsace. But if you do, and you tell them your heading and altitude, then you must tell them when you change your heading or altitude. If you are just wandering around, tell them so instead of telling them your altitude and heading.

Paris, France

But if you do, and you tell them your heading and altitude, then you must tell them when you change your heading or altitude.

Not in my part of the world (Austria and neighbouring countries). Afer establishing initial contact with FIS (“DEALD, ST10 on a VFR flight from x to y, just departed x, passing 2.500 ft, climbing 4.500 ft initially, routing via z, squawk 7000, request traffic information”) you are expected to inform of major changes of routing only. Calling them for every 1000 ft higher or lower or every 30 degrees in whatever direction would just clutter the frequency. Sometimes you hear that from foreign pilots which usually results in FIS answering “you are in unctrolled airsprace, on discretion”.

Last Edited by blueline at 16 May 13:14
LOAN Wiener Neustadt Ost, Austria

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. You don’t have to call a FIS out of controlled airpsace. But if you do, and you tell them your heading and altitude, then you must tell them when you change your heading or altitude.

No need for apologies, cher ami. Still, you leave me unconvinced, I am afraid: even if I have talked to FIS, and told them my altitude and heading, and perhaps even my intentions, where is the obligation to inform them of any change?

I do not doubt the good sense of what you put forward, I am only wondering about the relevant rulegiving, not having found any such. IOW what you suggest certainly makes sense, and I do will act accordingly, the waves of aether willing but I wonder about the “must” bit.

Last Edited by at 16 May 13:16
EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

Cap 774:
Deconfliction Service and Procedural Service are only available to flights in Class G airspace operating under IFR.

A deconfliction service or procedural service implies that instructions are given to the pilot by the controller.
I see a contradiction with the definition of a class G airspace.

I assume that if you require such a service, then you must comply with the instructions received.
But I also assume that when you don’t require a procedural nor a deconfliction service, and stay with a basic or traffic service, you may fly an approach procedure if so you wish without asking permission, provided it’s out of CAS.
Am I right?

Last Edited by Piotr_Szut at 16 May 13:28
Paris, France

Piotr_Szut wrote:

I see a contradiction with the definition of a class G airspace.

And so do I !

EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

Piotr_Szut wrote:

A deconfliction service or procedural service implies that instructions are given to the pilot by the controller.
I see a contradiction with the definition of a class G airspace.

Not really. The big difference is that participation in the service is voluntary, while in controlled airspace it is mandatory. A procedural service tries to separate participating aircraft, which also means that participating aircraft follow the clearances given. Otherwise it won’t work

I assume that if you require such a service, then you must comply with the instructions received.

It would be pointless otherwise, but of course you can just cancel the service and go your merry way

But I also assume that when you don’t require a procedural nor a deconfliction service, and stay with a basic or traffic service, you may fly an approach procedure if so you wish without asking permission, provided it’s out of CAS.
Am I right?

Yes, as long as you are outside the ATZ of the airfield. But using this as an approach to land VFR is not in accordance with VFR joining procedures. Nobody can tell if you fly the long straight in using the ILS or just visually, but ATC need to be happy with a straight in approach for you to fly it.

Biggin Hill

Jan_Olieslagers wrote:

Still, you leave me unconvinced, I am afraid: even if I have talked to FIS, and told them my altitude and heading, and perhaps even my intentions, where is the obligation to inform them of any change?

It’s not just that you have spoken to them…it’s only when you have further entered into an agreement by taking a “service” whereby they will give you instructions OCAS, and in return you will comply (subject to the usual safety caveats)…. The protocol is they will ask what service you require, you will request one, they will offer it and finally you will read back what they offered (and you accepted)….

YPJT, United Arab Emirates
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