Peter wrote:
This appears to be a tricky decision for some TKS equipped pilots, because the stuff is expensive, yet if you don’t regularly turn it on and waste some fluid, the system gets clogged up. The pumps also fail and they cost an absolute fortune.
At the time I was flying a FIKI TB20, turning on the pump and checking that all the panels got wet were part of the preflight procedure according to the POH.
PS. I don’t mean “FIKI” in the US sense. I mean that the aircraft was certified for known icing by the French authorities.
As a general comment I find the DWD products excellent and “modern” in their presentation. Particularly when accessed through autorouter Telegram.
Fuji_Abound wrote:
#22
The point I sort to make is that if you resort to TKS once ice has formed then a high flow rate will be required to remove the ice and given the size of typical resevoirs the fluid will quickly be used. I think the strategy is ideally to use TKS before entering icing conditions. Boots on the other hand work as soon as ice is detected, and while they can be cycled before entering icing conditions there is nothing to be gained. Waiting for a significant build up of ice with either would be foolhardy. Perhaps there isnt agreement but I had always understood TKS should be switched on as soon as you anticipate you might enter icing conditions notwithstanding the temptation to limit the use of fluid.
Precisely what I was referring to. Ill take a quote from someone else, “Use early and use often”.
If you know that the tops are only a few 1000’ thick you might want to wait but if you pick some up it takes a long time to “sublimate” and if you use deice youll use more than if you had just charged the system (3/4-1 gal). If you dont get rid of the ice the aircraft’s performance might suffer depending on how much you picked up.
Rwy20 wrote:
The wrong answer is after sufficient ice has built up to prevent “bridging”. Reading into this, it seems the technology changed long ago (like 50 years ago) and while with the early systems you had to build some ice before being able to shed it, certification requirements now are such that the system must work with any amount of ice.
I have seen a video about flight in known icing that “debunks” the “bridging myth”. The video may well have been b&w and produced by the FAA. Maybe someone else has seen it and able to retrieve it.
Picked that up in a few mins, FL120, -5C.
There was little or no speed loss at this stage but we descended out of IMC quickly, and over an hour or so the stuff gradually sublimated away.
Peter wrote:
People are too afraid of ATC. It is something you get from PPL training, with all the dark hints of what happens to you, spoken in a low voice – presumably to make sure that it isn’t overheard by somebody who just happens to fly from A to B occasionally
True, I see even old flight instructors getting really surprised how one can do something not-so-special as fly gatwick overhead (I think given the choice they might elect a flight over Donestk is in class G.
ATC doesn’t bite, in this concrete example, I found myself in my friend’s Arrow picking up ice to the point we couldn’t maintain flight.
Good experiences learned that day
1) Ice builds up really fast: We were at about FL100, flying for over 1h about 100ft over a stratus layer. temperature about -10 degrees. ATC asked us if we could descent, we were seeing the layer creep up, we asked for climb instead. Before they cleared us, we just litterally touched (wing, not even windshield) some of the layer. Quickly started losing speed, and at some point it became obvious we weren’t going to be able to even climb. Once we were in the layer, ice built as in “fast forward motion”. Windshied completely frozen (with a thick laywer) in seconds.
2) We were flying VFR (I had an IR(R), he has a FAA IR / FI, and we were on G-Reg), started an emergency descent (power off and about approach speed). Told ATC, who asked to “confirm maintaining VFR” to which we replied negative. They asked us to advice when back VFR, (which we did, about 2 min after, with plane completely clean, it was a summer day so Ice went as fast as it came). They never asked any other question / made comment. I think it’s better that way: Us being scared of them would probably get us killed. Lying to them about not being VFR while we should could also have been quite dangerous (and more illegal).
3) Related to 1), but we were going to actually cross some high region over alps. Obvious poor planning / decision making as we shouldn’t have continued flight over that stratus. Lots of good lessons learned there.
I wish:
PPL training would focus on showing you shouldn’t ever be scared to talk to ATC (Maybe listen to some recordings) / have you if possible put you in a mock urgency situation and actually talk to ATC).
IR(R) / IR training should have an experience in actual ice, to see how fast it gets. If not possible, then some mandatory video. For me it was a real eye-opener.
On the insidious things that you don’t see as close to you, I think also O2. Around london, since you never climb above 4500, I don’t think intructors ever mention it to you. I think lot more focus should be put on it.
I once organized a kind of ‘meet your ATC’ between Lausanne flight club (GVM) and 2 GVA controlers I know.
They told us the same: do NOT hesitate to contact them even for a small local flight.
One never know what can happen, and that is indeed something that should be tought during PPL.
My instructor always told me to switch to GVA info asap, even if I don’t have nothing to say, but just listen.
But I ‘ve also flown with other instructors who didn’t care to contact ATC for short trips…
As in every profession, I suppose, there are good and bad controllers. There are controllers that had a bad day or are grumpy because their spouses just announced they would leave them and seek custody of the kids, and you have generally happy controllers.
There are also cultural differences from one country to another that come into play.
But as long as you do not screw up big time and give the controller a reason to get pissed, I have not experienced any time where they have not been helpful and tried to accommodate the special needs and constraints of light GA.
If I encounter any ice buildup during cruise and ask for a descent, I have always gotten that even below MEA (in France). When I ask for shortcuts I will normally get something within the constraint of agreements between sectors, and often even better shortcuts after coordination with the neighbouring sector.
What you do not want to do is put yourself in a corner where you have no margin, for example at the MEA over high terrain just at or below the 0-isotherm, and then relying on ATC to get you out of the mess you where he may not have any wiggle room either.
Not communicating problems to the controller is not good because it prevents the controller to take appropriate action like keeping other airplanes away from you. The other day north of Bastia I encountered turbulence that made it difficult to maintain altitude within 200 feet and told the controller just so he would be aware what the situation was.
I have however heard controllers give pilots some heat on air after a screw-up. At Pontoise a pilot was lectured for having entered the traffic pattern (downwind) the wrong way. After takeoff from Brac the other day, I heard ATC give it to a pilot who turned the wrong way onto a radar heading. One day at Pontoise a pilot thanked the controller for having called a traffic to him and added it had been really close. For some reason the controller got all worked up and insisted repeatedly that he had been given traffic info. Meanwhile I was waiting for approach clearance.
Such things should not happen and reflect badly on the controller who is making a potentially already stressful situation even more stressful for the pilot, and thereby creating a potential for additional screw-ups. And it also creates a fear for the controller which prevents some from asking for what they need.
My experience is as above, except in France:
Presumably the military feel they need to make a big fuss otherwise they would gradually lose their private airspace. A bit like always spending your budget at work. I am sure the huge prohibited areas south of Southampton are firmly in that category.
when flying in central europe how often do you need de-icing? or how often did you had to cancel flying due to icing conditions
i am asking as most of the sep have only light de icing equipment (mostly a hot prop) only newer planes seem to have fiki or similar.
also i did see Peter waslooking for de-icing for his TB20
so just wanted to know from “real life” situations about the need for de icing for IFR in central europe
thanks
