Pilot_DAR wrote:
I expect that an certified aircraft must meet the requirement that power on or off, the elevator is effective to lower the nose.
During normal flying regime certainly. But in a fully developed stall and beyond, how are flying controls supposed to remain effective? And lots of T-tailed airliners can enter a “deep stall” which is not recoverable – yet they are certified (with operative stick-shakers, stick-pushers or other means of envelope protection).
Pilot_DAR wrote:
If you’re going to provide the service, you have to have the equipment!
Obviously (and I repeat myslef), that “service” (i.e. spin training) is not a stringent requirement. Otherwise our flying school would not have an EASA approved training syllabus. I don’t know how it is done paperwork-wise, I am only the driver…
what_next wrote:
Obviously (and I repeat myslef), that “service” (i.e. spin training) is not a stringent requirement. Otherwise our flying school would not have an EASA approved training syllabus. I don’t know how it is done paperwork-wise, I am only the driver…but common in EASA land, and how many training scholls have their own aerobatic aircraft? At best it is access to one.
You don’t need an aerobatic arircraft. C172 and C152 are approved for spinning as long as stricter W&B limits are adhered to.
…also the slab wing Cherokee 140, Tomahawk, Skipper.
For exampe the Fuji from which my handle arises spins in a totally predictable and benign way BUT it is possible to set it into an inverted spin which comes as a bit of a surprise when it happens and it does pitch very nose down which means there is a lot of green whirling around
A crossover into inverted spin territory would not occur on initial spin entry, unless you were inverted to start with and you stalled inverted (i.e. pushed into the inverted stall), recovery should be easier, all things being equal, because of the absence of rudder blanking, but you would be pulling, not pushing.
In some types aggressive spin recovery can result in a crossover to inverted, not sure this would be a feature of the Fuji, more Pitts territory.
what_next wrote:
And what could I possibly learn from spinning?
To have fun also when flying? 
But how, when no aircraft in the training fleet is approved for intentional spinning…
In the UK you cannot get a FI Course approval if you do not have an aircraft certified for spinning.
Its down to the Regulator to do their job properly. EASA has muddied the waters as well as reducing standards.
You’ll notice that in this video the aircraft does not autorotate until the end of the first turn
Note the poor checks prior to spinning, at 30 seconds another Cessna crosses the windscreen as the spin is entered!
I’ve only spun 150/152 and 172 more than one turn, and yes, the spin evolves after a turn. The requirement for spin compliance for normal certified airplanes is only one turn then recovery, and spinning beyond that is a lesser interest to me. That said, I feel that every pilot should be at least aware of spinning, based upon having experienced the sensations. A pilot does not have to like it, but should experience it.
I’ve spun many types and many hundreds of times, and never had an erect spin become anything other than an erect recovery. I did have a 185 tumble once, and I don’t really know what happened, but as soon as I recognized it was pointed down, it came out fine. Four parachutists had hand over handed out the wing strut without warning me, and all let go at once, while I had full opposing control held in against their drag. Lesson: get a briefing from the jumpers before opening the door!
I can’t speak to T tailed airliners, ‘out of my realm. There have been special conditions to certification, in which case is has been found that there was a mitigating favourable characteristic to balance a close non compliance. My only experience with this was the special condition which allowed certification of the King Air B200, which was found to be capable of flight at 40 degrees of yaw – and it will! But, as described, it returns upon command. Weird and useless, but harmless. When I’ve done stall and some spin testing on T tailed aircraft, I’ve been aware, but never had a problem. But, for certified singles, particularly those which might be trainers or bushplanes, stall and spin handling is not compromised during certification flight testing.
I agree that some military trainers have demanding spin handling, and that is as it should be. GA types can be benign, and still be a suitable platform for developing basic skills.
RobertL18C wrote:
A crossover into inverted spin territory would not occur on initial spin entry, unless you were inverted to start with and you stalled inverted (i.e. pushed into the inverted stall), recovery should be easier, all things being equal, because of the absence of rudder blanking, but you would be pulling, not pushing.
I agree. I have never experienced and inverted spin that I was unintentional or you couldnt see coming if you knew why the pre-existing manouevre was going wrong.
Many student pilots and instructors died training spin recovery. Most of them would never have experienced one.
I recently recovered the Beech from an unusual attitude during IR training, a simulated beginning of a spiral. power idle, bank level, and slowly pull. It was getting faster very quickly, maybe because there wasn’t any gear to slow me down.
I am pretty sure now that I most probably will be scared stiff and and won’t think fast enough to recover should I ever happen to inadvertently spin. Maybe aerobatic training can overcome that. To get the fear out of my bones. Doing it in a glider at least achieves that. I never flew a glider.
