Another question that struck me while reading the thread on “the night before” (as it was brought up somewhere) is how meticulous people are in terms of W&B.
It was mentioned to “weigh” the luggage the night before. I never did that so far and never asked my passengers to do that, either. Well, if there is a check-in counter at the airport that is unused, I sometimes put the luggage on there to weigh it – but by then, my W&B calculations have already been made.
So I usually work with estimates – about luggage weights, about female passenger weights (guys I will ask) and about the weight of all the “stuff” that can usually be found in the baggage compartment of a chartered aircraft. But I then am quite careful with these estimates to not go above the MTOW.
Another issue is obviously the level of fuel found in a chartered aircraft. It can sometimes be more than you need and calculated with. Where’s the sensible margin to actually maybe CANCEL a flight due to that, or take other measures. I once, on a local sightseeing flight with 4 planned people left one behind (they had to play rock-paper-scissors for that) because the C172 had both tanks almost filled to the top.
And then I’ve come across pilots (especially with their own airplane) who don’t take MTOW seriously at all and just take-off overweight, as they’ve done it before and they know “she flies”.
Being overweight is not a huge problem as long as:
So don’t turn this into a science. If W&B were such an exact science, none of us would probably have been able to get a PPL in a C150/152!
Patrick wrote:
And then I’ve come across pilots (especially with their own airplane) who don’t take MTOW seriously at all and just take-off overweight, as they’ve done it before and they know “she flies”.
The type certificate of the C182 says that you can be up to 30% overweight with NAA permission. The speeds are slightly adjusted in that case. 30% for a C182 is 420kg overweight! If you’re within W&B, you’re safe and in a well tested environment with trustworthy performance figures in your POH. If you’re outside, then you have to know what you’re doing.
The airlines fly overweight all the time. FAA standard person is 170lbs. I doubt many of the females and males I see in the US these days are below 200lbs. Carry-on luggage doesn’t get weighted either, so every person could potentially be carrying a lot of excess weight that never gets accounted for.
If I’m likely to come anywhere near MTOW I will do a W&B calculation.
Most of the time it’s simply not needed. I know that we’ll be well inside the envelope.
But when it comes to passengers and baggage, you can’t trust their estimates. You should at least pick up the bag to see if it’s not out by an order of magnatitude.
I never plan to take off over weight. But I know that there will probably be some junk in the back that I’ve forgotten to take account of, or some last minute additions (snacks etc), so could often be slightly overweight (but less than 5kg).
To each their own I suppose.
Airliners are very rarely flying anywhere near MTOW, and have stacks of performance, with a very wide CG range. They also do have incidents due to poor W&B, generally tail strikes. One famous incident had a party of 30 schoolchildren at the back of the aircraft who had been entered as adults and a correspondingly erroneous trim setting.
MTOW may not be a one-off issue – ferry permits and so on allow flights over certified MTOW for extra fuel tanks and so on. However, being outside the certified CG limits is a BIG issue. The limits are established by flight test for a reason and the aircraft may not be fully controllable. The certified limits are there for a reason – respect them!
W&B starts to get my attention when I fly with 4 people on board and if it’s 4 people with baggage then I weigh the baggage. If the runway is long and no obstacles I will always prefer full tanks, even if the plane is a bit overweight. Depends on the plane of course. With the 310 hp Cirrus you really don’t feel 50 kg, with the 150 hp Warrior you better be careful, especially in high density altitude conditons.
Flyer59 wrote:
W&B starts to get my attention when I fly with 4 people on board and if it’s 4 people with baggage then I weigh the baggage.
In any piston 4-seater you’re above MTOM with 4 adults, any luggage and full tanks.
Emir wrote:
In any piston 4-seater you’re above MTOM with 4 adults, any luggage and full tanks.
The C182 is an exception to that and the Cirrus G5 as well.
It’s bizarre: we got told flying above MTOM is illegal, dangerous, never to be done and then our whole flight training is done massively overweight! If I have the choice between leaving some fuel at the station and going 50kg over MTOM, I would always choose the latter but that’s because I know the aircraft very well.
I see people flying massively overweight very frequently and that’s not just the training C152. When a PA46 needs 2/3 of of a large airliner runway, then everybody should now what’s happening. I have no strong feelings about it, you just have to know what you are doing and be aware that you’re giving up safety margin.
PS: There are a lot of cars out there today that with 4 adults and luggage are officially overweight!
Did I say 4 people, baggage and full tanks?
With four people of 75 kg I can still take 200 liters of fuel, that’s 3 hours plus 30 minutes reserve. Because of the aircondition and semiportable oxygen system i lose about 40 kg of payload, so I only have 440 kg.
The G5 is essentially the same airplane as a G1, G2 or G3. The structural strength and the engine power are identical. The CAPS canopy is a bit bigger though. So the only risk is that you would desced a bit faster under the canopy if fully loaded. The performance is pretty much identical.
Emir wrote:
In any piston 4-seater you’re above MTOM with 4 adults, any luggage and full tanks.
Not mine :-)
My PA-28-236 has an empty weight of 827 kg and an MTOM of 1362 kg. It will obviously carry a full cabin and full fuel, but I do not know of any other 4-seaters that will. Probably some C182’s will also.
I do what dublinpilot describes. Do the w&b if not sure. For pax, I usually use estimates; sometimes I ask. I never plan to fly overweight. I have flown overweight on occasions, but not very much overweight. I know it can be done without incident but I find it is a slightly slippery slope. Even assuming there is no performance issue, how much is to much? Flying CoG behind rear limit is not on, nor is CoG front of forward limit as a stalled landing slightly above the runway can drop the plane hard down onto the nosegear.
One of the great dangers of flying significantly overweight is failing to adjust speeds and trying to lift off at the usual speed (or worse, at the usual distance down the runway). Knowingly flying overweight might show a bad morale, but I think doing it unknowingly has a bigger health risk.
