So did essentially every PPL holder except in the UK.
A JAR-FCL PPL was 3000m. So that is roughly 1999-2011.
You must be referring to pre-JAR licenses. But then UK pre-JAR PPLs might have been 1500m too. That is the ICAO baseline for VFR.
1500m is really poor visibility. On an IAP, one can only just about see the runway at an MDH of 800ft. And VFR flight (fixed wing) is impossible in 1500m unless flying very low (well below 1000ft). Visual navigation is obviously impossible – you have to use GPS or know where you are anyway. Even 3000m cannot be visually navigated using traditional PPL methods, if flying at sensible altitudes.
A JAR-FCL PPL was 3000m
Again: not outside UK. “Normal” PPLs don’t contain any additional visibility restrictions.
Sorry, the rest Europe has always had 1500m, before, during and after JAR.
1500m is really poor visibility. On an IAP, one can only just about see the runway at an MDH of 800ft. And VFR flight (fixed wing) is impossible in 1500m unless flying very low (well below 1000ft). Visual navigation is obviously impossible – you have to use GPS or know where you are anyway. Even 3000m cannot be visually navigated using traditional PPL methods, if flying at sensible altitudes.
That’s why it’s a minimum. Everybody is free to (and should) set his own minimums.
Many people misunderstand the idea of minimums and think that as long as they are above legal minumums., it must be safe to fly. No. It depends on the circumstances.
As such, minimums need to have, well, pretty low values. Take that 1500 metres visibility minimum. Immagine a pilot, at his local airfield that he knows very well, in his own aircraft that he also knows very well. The pilot needs to fly a few circuits (for whatever reason). Misty weather – skies clear, calm wind but only 2500 metres vis. But it would be illegal to fly if the minumum were say 3000 metres.
The main reason Germany (and presumably others) have always had those 1500m for VFR is to allow legal operation of helicopters.
1500m is applicable for fixed wings, helicopters can go down to 800m. There was a time where also rule of speed/visibility ratio was valid /for 200kph (kph, not kts) the minumum was 2km/ but this is gone, max speed is now 140 kts. 1500m is crazy at 95kts, not speaking about 140kts ;-)
The discussion concerned Patrick’s flight into Cologne/Bonn. That is an airport with a control zone. Class D in Germany, if I am not mistaken. Thus the visibility limit for VMC is 5000 m.
True, but with Special VFR that would again be 1500m.
Patrick wrote:
True, but with Special VFR that would again be 1500m.
Yes, but that’s not what I’m talking about.
You wrote that you were surprised (or so I understood) that the ATIS reported 10 km while the viz was actually 5 km. I know that observed figures have to change quite a bit from the previously reported ones before a special report is made. There are specific “gates” where a special report is required. I don’t have access to the criteria right now, but it seems reasonable to me that 5 km is such a “gate” as the VMC/IMC distinction is operationally significant. Indeed, as you point out, if viz drops below 5 km you need Special VFR for visual flight.
Peter wrote:
But then UK pre-JAR PPLs might have been 1500m too.
They were not. The 3000 m limitation was around before JAR-FCL.
Airborne_Again wrote:
You wrote that you were surprised (or so I understood) that the ATIS reported 10 km while the viz was actually 5 km. I know that observed figures have to change quite a bit from the previously reported ones before a special report is made
Correct. Though I already listened to the ATIS again on the ground – I believe it was the next letter (i.e. either revised or just the next regular interval) and it was still 10 km or more.
