Peter wrote:
On the contrary – see the map
How does one fly around Shoreham VFR at or above 3700 ft without crossing the approaches (the chevrons), not flying in class A and not flying rather far out over the sea? I don’t see such a route on this map.
There is a vast area with a 5500ft base. Another one with a 4500ft base. FWIW, I have been fying around there for 17 years and there is no issue avoiding the obvious spots.
One issue is that UK PPL training happens mostly at 2000ft, and anything above that is described on the biggest UK aviation chat site as “flight level nosebleed” 
This is indeed very clear when flying around the UK. Above about 3000ft the traffic density is very low.
Peter wrote:
There is a vast area with a 5500ft base. Another one with a 4500ft base.
Shoreham’s approaches to RWY20 extend well into the 2500 ft base area. Your maps (both the VFR chart and the IAP chart) clearly show this. How should one fly there in a roughly E-W direction without crossing any of the approaches and not flying well (more than 7.5 nm) out over the sea? I’m genuinely interested because I do not see such a route, other than maybe crossing directly over the airport.
You can fly roughly 10nm N of EGKA at up to 4500ft. So flying at platform+500 i.e. 2700ft is no problem.
Perhaps the key is that there is no need to squeeze under the 2500ft CAS area. That in any case brings other issues e.g. “everybody” flies at 2300ft there…
Flying E – W in this area at 4000-5000ft is wonderful. Total peace
One issue is that UK PPL training happens mostly at 2000ft, and anything above that is described on the biggest UK aviation chat site as “flight level nosebleed"
My training was done 2000 – 6000 ft.
4000-5000ft is wonderful
Indeed. Anything below 2000ft would give me a nosebleed!
Peter wrote:
You can fly roughly 10nm N of EGKA at up to 4500ft. So flying at platform+500 i.e. 2700ft is no problem.
But looking at the chart, how would the VFR pilot know the platform altitude or that the 2700 feet is clear of it?
Should PPL training include NOT flying through instrument approaches in Class E-G?
My answer: no
During PPL, we teach people to fly an aircraft, the evolution after PPL makes (can make) someone a pilot instead of a person flying an aircraft…
I only flew in Belgium and Germany during my PPL, easy cross country flight (although on that moment, some Belgian airspace seemed a bit complex in the neighborhood of EBCI) – but no class E. They never told to avoid an IA, but here they are almost all in controlled airspace. What they did tell me is always to have radiocontact, even for the very short, small flights.
Planning long trips and pilot skills is what you learn after PPL, by plotting your route, looking information,…but if your main source is a VFR chart (now it is easier with the digital data – but during my PPL training I was not allowed to use digital sources.), it should not be overcrowded with too much information. That works only confusing and is only source for more mistakes. During PPL they don’t teach us how to read IA charts, and on the VFR charts you don’t find all the information – how do you expect people to avoid “the holy IFR path”?
If I plan a trip across Europe of a few 100 NM, I like to do that in controlled airspace and on the higher levels. But sometimes I have to go VFR low level what means already a huge bunch of extra information and a lot more small controlled area’s, we only get ad hoc clearance (or not), we have to switch a lot to other persons who are not always really interested in our flying. (if we want to go direct instead of tracking around)
And I must say, I also don’t have an IA chart with me for all the field who are possibly on my route or maybe near my route witin 30nm (with the digital sources now it is easier) – I am even not supposed to know how to read them, so how to avoid that (mostly) very very very big area – also depending on what runway is in use when there is more than one.
If I have to avoid all the possible IA/GPS approaches,… – what space is left for us? (IFR straight in and VFR is only allowed for buzzing (and avoiding) around instead of economical flying from A to B? A perfect VMC but with a low class A above you- VFR is trapped when they also officious have to avoid IA area’s and more.
What is wrong with a normal lookout? If you are in G or E – you know the chance for other VFR traffic is there – so have a lookout, you are not busting clouds but you’re in VMC. We also have a look outside to see the traffic. If you are making an IA and someone is busting your pathway, make it a visual, fly a normal circuit – for that one time you will experience it it during all the years. You know the airspace and you know it is a possible.
I know you don’t mean it like that Peter, but in the very first post and also in the question I get an elitist feeling about an IR and the idea that IFR should get “priority”, even in not dedicated area’s. But don’t make whole the area in G or E around the IA of an airfield “prohibited” for VFR – there are already so much dedicated area’s for higher ratings and so few large open “free” area’s. You are supposed to be a pilot (if you have your IR), but you can’t suppose the other person is that too – you don’t know – so be aware and be prepared. We don’t have that problem in Belgium yet because all above 3500ft and all IA are controlled area.
For me the “golden buzzer” is still radiocontact/communication skills. You can be the best pilot ever, but if you fail to be clear on the radio you will affect others. IFR in class G – E: VFR charts mostly don’t even show IFR reporting points.
It’s not a matter of IFR elitism or some such. It is an entirely pragmatic matter of avoiding traffic which has a good chance of being at altitude X and general area Y.
For example, enroute, I avoid the 1000-2000ft band (except where completely impossible e.g. the notorious Manchester/Liverpool 1300ft transit corridor). I am happy if that traffic thinks they “own” that airspace; I am definitely keeping out of it. Do I think they would see me if I flew in it? Do I think the 90 year old car driver who I am about to overtake is awake and aware of me? On day I will be 90, hopefully, and maybe even still driving, in which case I will be very happy with everybody assuming I am unaware of their existence, and looking after themselves
Like I said, there is no obvious way to deal with this “knowledge issue”. But they already teach pilots to avoid busy airfield ATZs so an accurate nav capability is already assumed. And let’s be honest, it is damn hard to fly in today’s CAS structure using the PPL-taught WW1 nav methods, so GPS use is implicit. And most grass fields are a bugger to spot even when you have a GPS… I would not overfly airfields at 2000ft AAL. This is really the same thing. A PPL should already be taught to not overfly Shoreham at 2000ft AAL (2000ft QNH more or less). Why not teach them to also avoid 2200ft? It’s not rocket science.
Jason wrote:
But looking at the chart, how would the VFR pilot know the platform altitude or that the 2700 feet is clear of it?
My thoughts exactly. How do I know about these platform altitudes or any non-straight-in part of an IAP as a VFR only pilot with VFR charts?
You would not, which is why I am asking how things could change.
