Timothy wrote:
Really, though? When and where did that last happen to you? I mean you, not someone else you heard about from a third party with an agenda?
Around 2010? Southampton TMA IIRC. Old Sarum to Stapleford. And according to recent stories on this forum, nothing has changed since.
And did you report it to the CAA for investigation, as they ask?
No. I did not know about the possibility then. Don’t even know if that already existed. I am really ignorant. I admit.
To tell you the truth, the UK is on my no-go list together with Italy and Grece.
So it happened to you once eight years ago and you generalise that to “mostly unable to obtain clearance”?
I probably fly at least 100 hours a year VFR within the London FIR, and I always fly VFR in straight lines across any intervening Class D (with the single exception of Heathrow*). I guess that I fly at least 30 hours a year within UK Class D, and I struggle to remember more than three refusals in the last ten years. There is some serious misrepresentation on this subject.
* Heathrow is an anomaly. “Everyone knows” that it should really be Class A, but it was determined a few years ago that Class A zones are no longer permissible. So now we all accept that it is marked in the AIP, but it’s really Class A and that’s Ok ;-)
It was not the intention, obviously, for this thread to become a France versus UK competition (that was sorted significantly before my time), but this is yesterday, two transits of Solent CTR
It works about 95% of the time.
But you have to ask for a transit, you get a “cleared to transit via SAM at 4000ft” or some such, the word “cleared” is always used, and (this is a nonstandard UK-only bit) as you cross into the CAS you get a “Nxxxx radar control service” which which must read back with “radar control service Nxxxx”.
Getting back to the topic, the question remains: to what extent an ATC clearance (however worded) is a clearance to cross everything on that route. If you are IFR (I mean Eurocontrol IFR) then you can normally expect an affirmative on that (by long established tradition, if nothing else) but what about VFR? As I posted in post #1, the answer is “not necessarily”. Especially as you were never “cleared” to start with…
In the USA, is it really possible for one to enter Class D and fly around as one wishes laterally? Regardless of ICAO airspace classification, that would require ATC to reserve the whole level.
Timothy – I am not sure I completely agree with your analysis.
Over very many years I have seldom been refused a transit anywhere, but there are a few exceptions other than Heathrow that you mention. Stansted are more often a problem than not, and Gatwick, while usually making every effort to be helpful, are not always willing. To be fair a lot does depend on the time of the day and I tend to be at the start and end which is their busiest time. Southampton, which has often been slated in the past, I cant recall only ever having refused a transit once. Sometimes while not getting as far as a refusal by the time you have made contact it is barely worth bothering. I can think of more than a few occasions crossing the Thames and attempting to orchestrate a crossing with Gatwick (which is about the earliest you can set to), to find that by the time you have got a word in, and they have asked you to standby, you are far enough past to not bother. To be fair I dont think they always get to grips that at 160+ knots cutting the corner is only an advantage for a relatively short time.
What about this thread about crossing the “minefield” of Manchester and Liverpool zones where people go out of their way to avoid CAS?
Finners wrote:
Although there’s no ideal route for you, it’s not nearly as complicated as it might appear. You have five choices.
- Go up the eastern side avoiding Manchester via POL. You will have to dodge between the high ground of the Pennines and staying under the Manchester TMA, some of which is Class A. This is a definite no-go if there is cloud or poor visibility.
- Transit the Manchester control zone – I think you are very unlikely to get permission, but you could certainly ask.
- Go barnstorming up the Manchester low-level corridor (a VFR lane between the Liverpool and Manchester control zones. Max 1300 feet). You do not need any clearance, but make absolutely sure you get the Manchester QNH. Instructions here – but ignore references to 1250 feet, it’s very out of date and should say 1300 feet.
- Ask Liverpool for a zone transit. South-North transits are often routed overhead the airport. You might also get a transit through the eastern side of the Liverpool zone if they are operating on Runway 09. Oulton Park (WHI) to Seaforth might be a good route to ask for.
- Go up the western side, avoiding Liverpool. You can get a radar service from Hawarden.
- I would suggest that 4 or 5 are the most reliable and least hassle options. Although the low-level corridor is fun, in my view it is risky – there are airfields with no ATZ inside the corridor.
I’ll take France any day.
Peter wrote:
In the USA, is it really possible for one to enter Class D and fly around as one wishes laterally? Regardless of ICAO airspace classification, that would require ATC to reserve the whole level.
Why would they need to reserve the whole level? You’re VFR, therefore responsible for your own separation. In practice, though, you either transit or land, so it’s a non-issue. It happens a lot where I fly from, as the KSMO Class D sits between the Hollywood Hills and the LAX Bravo. Therefore, anyone flying along the coast and then the hills east (or the other direction), mostly wants to transit that piece of D. ATC will give traffic calls to transiting a/c. No problem.
bookworm wrote:
A clearance is a contract for separation.
Is it? It obviously can be, depending on airspace and flight rules, but equally obvious it is not the only reason. The other main reason is traffic management, efficiency, pure logistics. Flying VFR I have seldom regarded a clearance as a contract for separation only. It’s only in B that it would be the case, and we don’t have any B airspace. My home airport is in C. I can often get a clearance for instance: “as number two, clear to final behind…” after I have given a positive indication of vis.
But then again, flying at un-towered airports, especially aerosports airports with sometimes incredibly high traffic intensity from gliders, skydivers etc. it’s always amusing how much smoother things run without a guy or girl in a tower handing out clearances 
Other times, outside TMAs, in G airspace, you could be separated by the tower when the traffic is high. It happened as resent as this afternoon. No clearances or anything, just separation by altitude when two or more aircraft are converging to the main airport. One can wonder if the ATC has the right to do it, but it can also easily be seen as a service, being in contact with the approach.
Peter wrote:
Getting back to the topic, the question remains: to what extent an ATC clearance (however worded) is a clearance to cross everything on that route. If you are IFR (I mean Eurocontrol IFR) then you can normally expect an affirmative on that (by long established tradition, if nothing else) but what about VFR? As I posted in post #1, the answer is “not necessarily”. Especially as you were never “cleared” to start with…
IMO a the flight plan is the key here. A VFR flight plan with the flight level marked as “VFR” is per def. NOT a controlled flight. A VFR flight plan with an altitude or FL is per def a controlled flight. An IFR flight plan is always a controlled flight (I think). But, a VFR flight with a set altitude, how often can you do that, thinking of weather. Also, you have to fly very high at places to get into controlled airspace through all the route (10k +). This is higher than the typical optimal point for a non turbo engine/aircraft. I don’t know if the actual en route conditions matter if the flight plan (as a whole) is regarded as controlled or not. Having filed with an alt or FL, the intention should be clear, but who knows?
Many private pilots in the UK avoid CAS, based on their instructors being ignorant and people in bars and forums telling them it’s difficult or impossible.
It’s not. It’s fine. I do it all the time with 99.5% success or more.
Peter wrote:
In the USA, is it really possible for one to enter Class D and fly around as one wishes laterally? Regardless of ICAO airspace classification, that would require ATC to reserve the whole level.
I’m not sure I understand the question… After you establish radio contact there may be brief pause before the Class D tower can deal with you, but he knows where you are, has by establishing radio contact allowed you in, and at busier airports generally has a radar feed to watch you. So you just keep doing what you’re going to coordinate with him in due course and (assuming VMC) maintain visual separation. If he doesn’t like what you’re doing, he’ll tell you. There are aircraft all over the Class D, VFR and IFR, he’s watching all of them, and probably some above the D airspace too that haven’t made contact.
Aircraft departing at the same time probably haven’t discussed their plans with ATC beyond “straight out” or “right downwind” or similar, so in reality managing much of the VFR traffic movement in the Class D, providing traffic advisories etc, is a real time activity for ATC not a system of specifically preplanned clearances.
