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Garmin 430 For 8.33?

Our club is looking at changing the radio and transponder in our Piper Arrow.

Currently we have a Bendix King KX155 nav/com and a mode C transponder. We don’t need to update the radio for flight inside Ireland, but there are a few of us who like to fly a bit further and for this an 8.33 radio is required. We’ve got on fine with a mode C transponder, but it’s getting increasingly restrictive and it might be a good time to update it to mode S.

Most of our members are VFR only pilots, though one has an IR, one an expired IR and one training for an IR. There are roughly 15 members of the club in total, so mainly VFR pilots.

Thoughts on the 8.33 radio are centring around a Garmin 430 or a Garmin GNC255.

The appeal of the 430 is coming from the IR members who believe that it would make the aircraft airways compatible assuming the transponder is upgraded, and some feel the GPS would be of appeal to new members.

But none of us really know much about this. For example, there are 430 and 430w devices. We’re not really 100% sure of the difference but from memory I believe that the 430A includes WAAS and I have a feeling that that was important for IFR flight. Is that correct? If so, it would mean that we’d need the 430W and not the 430.
I also see they can be with or without terrain. Is there much significance to this?

I also see they are “Recertified” or “Reconditioned”. Again I’m not 100% sure on this, but I would guess that recertified means just a piece of paperwork and reconditioned means parts subject to wear and tear are replaced.

Would a 430/430W open the possibility of GPS approaches or do I remember correctly that something else is needed for those?

The appeal of he GNC255 is that it’s a brand new device and not second hand and therefore likely to last longer without problems.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

By the way, most of the radios seem to be available in 10W and 16W versions. What do most people go for? The difference in cost seems to be in the order of €600.

Is the TKM MX155 available yet? If so, does anyone have any opinion on it? It’s apparently a slide in replacement for the KX155 and significantly cheaper.
https://www.gps.co.uk/tkm-avionics-mx155-8.33khz-nav-comm-slide-in-replacement/p-0-2006/

Regarding the Mode S transponder does anyone have any advice? We’ve currently an old Narco mode C one.

On both, our main thought is to avoid having to upgrade again in a few years. With this in mind we’re conscious about future ADS-B requirements and would prefer to get something now that would be capable of that and somewhat future proof, at least as far as avionics can be!

Budget is limited, so it may have to be just an 8.33 radio if it’s one of the more expensive ones like the 430.

We’ve been quoted in the order of €2K each for installation costs of the 8.33 radio and the mode s transponder.

Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated. We’re feeling somewhat out of our depth with these decisions!

Colm

Last Edited by dublinpilot at 27 Jan 22:17
EIWT Weston

430 is non-WAAS and 10 W, 430W is WAAS and 10 W, 430A is non-WAAS and 16 W, and 430AW is WAAS and 16 W. The terrain function on non-WAAS units is an optional hardware upgrade done at the factory.

You are not required to have 16W if you don’t fly above FL250; also, 16 W units are 28 V only.

Precision GPS approaches (LPV) are only possible on WAAS units. Plain RNAV can be done on a plain 430.

The entire 430 family is quite nice for IFR and not quite so nice for VFR – too little detail in the moving map, and it’s easy to turn on the declutter mode inadvertently, which gives you still less detail. I did so on one flight and busted the CTR, thinking the line on the map to be a TMA boundary above me. Fortunately, a profuse apology to ATC over the telephone sufficed to close the incident.

For transponders, you have plenty of options. Personally, I don’t like tweaking knobs, so I’d opt for a second-hand Garmin GTX328/330 or Garrecht (Air Avionics) VT-2000 with digit buttons.

Last Edited by Ultranomad at 27 Jan 23:00
LKBU (near Prague), Czech Republic

My friend is upgrading his dual GNS430 and GTX 330 to GTN750 with GTN345R (ADS-B) this spring. He will have one used 430 and the 330 (mode S) available in very good condition. I suggest augmenting it with a tablet and Skydemon for good moving map IFV/VFR, redundancy. Most bang for the buck.

EBKT

One additional point reg. the GNS430 : can it drive the Nav indicator that you have ?
I remember a problem with a potential plane, where I wanted to make the same change (kx155 → 430) and would have needed a converter or a new indicator…
That would have been expensive.

...
EDM_, Germany

The 430 can work well in a club aircraft. For those who just want to use it as a radio you can just stick to the buttons on the left and ignore the ones on the right and it’s fairly intuitive to use. I’m planning on getting a new navdata subscription for mine as I’ve started IR training so if your IR pilots want to split a sub, let me know!

EIWT, Ireland

Even if you buy a 430, you should think about the W conversion, especially as you have the installation cost either way.

Europe is rapidly turning to LPV approaches and it would be a shame, at this stage, to limit yourselves from them. The W screen, and update rate are also better. It’s just a better box. In addition, when you have the upgrade done, they will replace the sloppy 15 year old knobs with crisp new ones.

The other thing is that 8.33 is going to become a reality over the coming months and having to twist the knob four times as much is a pain. Is there any possibility of going GTN?

EGKB Biggin Hill

The 430 is a good all-in-one-box device for coms, nav and GPS.

For pure 8.33 and VFR and Enroute IFR, the non-waas machine is more than sufficient, if you want to attract IFR folks, then the WAAS variant is the better solution.

It also has to be said that the WAAS unit is the much better box in total, much faster and it can connect to an ADSB-out capable transponder legally to provide ADSB-out. (The normal 430 technically also can do that, but it’s not supposed to, as you need a WAAS signal for ADSB.)

As for the CDI, quite possibly you can get an original Garmin CDI with it or separately also used. Quite a few people upgrade to Aspens or the likes and then get rid of theirs.

dublinpilot wrote:

I also see they are “Recertified” or “Reconditioned”. Again I’m not 100% sure on this, but I would guess that recertified means just a piece of paperwork and reconditioned means parts subject to wear and tear are replaced.

Yes, that is how I understand it as well. Of course you can go for private sales (“worked when removed”) but I’d talk to some radio shops and see what they have available. There are plenty around nowadays as people upgrade. And quite possibly you can get a better price if they get to install it as well.

dublinpilot wrote:

Would a 430/430W open the possibility of GPS approaches or do I remember correctly that something else is needed for those?

A normal GNS430 will give you access to some approaches, but in order to do LPV approaches, which is really what is going to be the thing coming up in the next years, you need a WAAS unit. For enroute IFR and for conventional radio nav approaches (ILS, VOR, e.t.c.) the normal GNS430 will do the job.

But even if you buy a GNS430 now for the lowest price and cost, you can later have it upgraded to WAAS. What may be a good idea is to go for the WAAS capable antenna and wiring from the start, it will save money when you eventually upgrade it. They do run on those antennas.

Looking at the used prices on ebay and with some dealers, non-waas units start at about $4000, WAAS units at $7000. The current GTN650 starts at around $10500, so the question is really whether a 430W is worth the while if you can get the current box for $3k more. The GTN’s are much more advanced.

If you decide to upgrade to a 8.33 com only, Trigg has several boxes which do that and you can keep your 155 for the nav part.
As for the transponder, I am very happy with the TT31 by Trigg. It is cheap, it can do ADSB-out and it works very well.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 28 Jan 10:31
LSZH, Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Looking at the used prices on ebay and with some dealers, non-waas units start at about $4000, WAAS units at $7000. The current GTN650 starts at around $10500, so the question is really whether a 430W is worth the while if you can get the current box for $3k more. The GTN’s are much more advanced.

My club also briefly considered a 430W when upgrading old avionics recently. But we intend to keep the aircraft for the foreseeable future and felt the $3500 difference was worth it to get a unit in current production which would most likely have a longer useful life than a second-hand 430W box.

As for the transponder, I am very happy with the TT31 by Trigg. It is cheap, it can do ADSB-out and it works very well.

We also have the TT31 in two aircraft and I agree!

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 28 Jan 10:19
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

A normal GNS430 will give you access to some approaches, but in order to do LPV approaches, which is really what is going to be the thing coming up in the next years, you need a WAAS unit.

One can fly basically all GPS/RNAV/RNP
approaches with a normal GNS430.

BTW, even though it is common lingo, there are no LPV approaches as such. They are GPS/RNAV/RNP flown “down to LPV minima”.

That said, if you do invest into a proper IFR GPS (coming from no such box at all), then sure enough you would definitely want to get a WAAS one. Non WAAS boxed are not state-of-the-art, despite them still doing their job reasonably well.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 28 Jan 11:52
Mainz (EDFZ), Germany

boscomantico wrote:

BTW, even though it is common lingo, there are no LPV approaches as such.

I’m not sure I understand you… There are 2D and 3D approaches LPV is a 3D approach (so is LNAV/VNAV). LP and LNAV approaches are 2D. They’re different approaches in the sense that obstacle clearances and minima are computed in an entirely different way

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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