But you would have to go to court. And the problem is that most of us dont want to do that unless there is no other option.
Based on certain persons I have been in contact with, this option is likely to ground you for upwards of 6 months, because the system (in which the CAA is one player) doesn’t work fast and because the CAA grounds you without reference to any judicial system.
In the UK, and in any other civilised justice system, you are innocent until proven guilty. The problem here is that the CAA suspends your license as soon as “the committee” has decided thus – usually about 1-2 months after the alleged offence – so you are declared guilty at that point. Then if the court clears you, say 6-12 months later, you have been grounded for all that time, with no compensation, and none likely because this is just a hobby and there was no economic loss.
You also can’t claim for a rusted up engine because – under UK law – you have a duty to minimise your losses, and leaving the plane in the hangar, or outdoors, doesn’t qualify. You would be expected to rent it out, sell it, etc.
The fact that the court is not likely to maintain your continued grounding (i.e. a permanent removal of license) unless you did something pretty awful, is of no use to you.
Basically, the UK CAA system is like the local police station having the power to ban you right away. They can’t. Only the court can do that, so if it takes 6 months to come to court, your ban will start only then. The CAA should not have the power to impose any license suspension because they are abusing it.
The ~£400 gasco “course” is like a fixed penalty speeding ticket, and harder to argue against. The main problem with it is that the n+1 event will ground you, per cap1404.
It’s not merely like a speed camera that goes off if you do 30.01 in a 30, it’s like a speed camera that rounds up your speed so you get done for speeding when you were actually doing 27 in a 30.
The new UK system is a speed camera every 100m, set to 0.1mph over the speed limit. And the “points” you get depend on the time of the year: in the winter you get 9 points so the next offence is a ban. In the summer you may get just 6 – unless they don’t like you (I got the bogus online exam on my 1st one, gasco on the 2nd) 
There needs to be a collective court case against the CAA since they are obviously abusing their powers.
Or move your licenses to another NAA that doesn’t suspend licenses based on false accusations from the CAA when you obviously have proof that no such infringement happened.
Peter wrote:
The CAA should not have the power to impose any license suspension because they are abusing it.
I think that’s a slightly excessive and perhaps a little inflammatory statement, based on what we currently know.
I would say instead "The explicit threat of licence suspension in CAP1404 is strongly incentivising pilots to waive their right to a fair hearing’.
RobertL18C wrote:
This suggests that not being able to extract a breadcrumb trail might require safety buffers – 1/2 mile, 1 mile, more?
The CAA suggest 2
Peter wrote:
the CAA does not accept GPS tracks in the pilot’s defence, against ATC radar data
This shows that for all their new-found enthusiasm on the use of GPS, they are still somewhat behind the times.
Shortly after I got my PPL I got into a bar-room discussion perhaps half a dozen more experienced aviators – instructors and qualified ATPLs among them. It was on exactly this subject – whether GPS or ATC radar was a more definitive source of an aircraft’s exact position in 3D space, the particular question being whether one was inside the boundary of a control zone or not.
Someone said to me: “Which do you think is more accurate, his multi-million pound radar system or the GPS in your tablet?”
I replied: “In terms of one’s exact position at any given time? The tablet, and by a significant margin.” At this the whole group fell about laughing – I was obviously a complete idiot.
I tried to explain the fundamental nature of the two technologies but they weren’t having any of it. I don’t think there was another science degree or even a technical qualification in the entire group.
alioth wrote:
Controllers obviously have discretion, which they no longer have in the UK.The problem isn’t that busts are followed up or GASCo courses. The problem is applying zero tolerance to a system that isn’t precise enough, and it’s that practice that should stop
They used to have this discretion in the UK.
Several times I can recall flying along at 2,400 under the LTMA and having Farnborough Radar ask me to confirm altitude and QNH as I was showing inside. When I confirmed 2,400 and the correct QNH they just said thanks, no worries.
RobertL18C wrote:
This suggests that not being able to extract a breadcrumb trail might require safety buffers – 1/2 mile, 1 mile, more?
The CAA suggest 2
They could solve minor infringements at a stroke by increasing zone boundaries a couple of miles and lowering CAS a couple of hundred feet, but then of course all those narrow choke points would get even worse or disappear altogether, and of course they would need new buffer zones for the enlarged CAS
Graham wrote:
Someone said to me: “Which do you think is more accurate, his multi-million pound radar system or the GPS in your tablet?”
Don’t you mean – his multimillion pound radar system or the multibillion dollar satellite system, of which my tablet is only the receiver? And of course the altitude part of the multi-million pound radar system is entirely your * ancient Narco AT-50 mode C transponder and an encoder designed in the mid 1970s.
* “your” generically, not necessarily Graham’s. I don’t know what transponder he has!
While above are all good points, I think the biggest problem is the aggressiveness of the new policy.
Why bust everyone?
Our society is no longer one where you get burnt because somebody says you are a witch, or get sent to a gas chamber because they think you have a specific ethnic origin.
There is a certain tolerance built into most areas of life.
With speed cameras you (UK) get 10% plus 3mph i.e. 80mph max in a 70mph limit. And even then you get 3 points for each, and at 12 there is a (almost mandatory) 6 month ban.
But even if you get this ban, you can lend your car to a car-less mate at work who can pick you up from work each day and who gets a free car for 6 months, and if it is a nice one he can cruise the night clubs with it the rest of the time (actual situation from many years ago)
What the CAA is now running is basically a speed camera every 100m, set to limit plus 0.01mph, and the penalty is seasonally adjusted according to how many of them they can stuff into the gasco “course”. In the winter you probably get gasco right away, so next time you (cap1404) get suspended. That’s a really harsh sentence which would not be tolerated in other other area of life where there is public scrutiny.
Especially in view of the dodgy ATC services we get in GA OCAS. But of course ATC cannot ever be wrong.
And when you do get banned from driving, the ban starts with the court judgement, not when the police feel like starting it. So if you feel you have been wrongly busted, you can get a lawyer to defend you and, if successful, you never get any penalty (well, the lawyer’s bill, probably).
Whereas the CAA suspends you as soon as they get around to it, and if you want to go to court, they can drag their heels for many months, while you are grounded and your engine is rusting due to no activity. Engine overhaul = 20k+.
It is a system which is so unjust for the modern era. It is “military” – not surprising given the very high % of ex RAF ATC types in it. But it is “old military”; modern military doesn’t do crude stuff like this.
Re radar accuracy, it is similar to DME on the radius from the head (say 0.1nm) but worse on the azimuth; around 0.5nm. A GPS is many times more accurate.
alioth wrote:
Don’t you mean – his multimillion pound radar system or the multibillion dollar satellite system, of which my tablet is only the receiver? And of course the altitude part of the multi-million pound radar system is entirely your 0 ancient Narco AT-50 mode C transponder and an encoder designed in the mid 1970s.0 “your” generically, not necessarily Graham’s. I don’t know what transponder he has!
I’m afraid such an explanation would have been lost on them.
