I was once at a regional airport listening in on the radio when someone was told to orbit by to allow some jets to land. 40 minutes later he piped up when they directed a passenger jet into conflict with him! Clearly he had been utterly forgotten about.
Yep that happens, but I wouldn’t have waited that long!
So you are flying OCAS and your route will take you across an ATZ in class G manned by a FISO. Ten minutes before arrival at the ATZ you call up the AFISO to give them your intentions and they say “standby” Despite the fact that it is not controlled airspace you are wishing to transit you go to a plan B expecting them not to come back to you, in the next 10 minutes. Surely all ATZ’s in the UK should therefore be CAS and manned by an ATC. Bearing in mind that an AFISO cannot give a transit clearance.
In France, let’s say I want to transit across the Niort Souché LFBN, runway axis. I call up about 5 minutes before and in the unlikely event that s/he would say standby,I might wait a minute or 2 whilst continuing my route and then call to announce say 3 minutes from crossing the runway axis. Usually the reply is report crossing the “axe” and I will be informed of other traffic.
I find this whole idea of getting permission from someone whom under ICAO is not allowed to give it to cross an area which is uncontrolled very difficult to get my head around. So I do apologise for what to most UK pilots must seem like very stupid questions.
I think you have described the farcical UK ATZ situation well 
It could be that somebody in the CAA dug themselves in some time ago making a self evidently stupid ruling and now cannot climb down. It will take the retirement / removal of that person to change policy.
kwlf wrote:
I was once at a regional airport listening in on the radio when someone was told to orbit by to allow some jets to land.
French Regional airport ATC sometimes has a habit of making all GA for 50 miles wait for the only CAT of the day… Except I recall once at sunny Carcassonne: My second inbound call estimated 4or5 mins out was met with the classic reply “Orbit at xx for the inbound Ryanair”, the next thing I hear is a nice British accent pipe up “Ryanair xxx is 10 minutes out at FLxxx, Can the Robin not get down and clear before us?”, to which before the ATC guy could respond I quickly replied “Definitely”…pregnant pause before ATC cleared me to land and expedite clearing the runway. I seem to recall we were parked and shut down as we waved our thanks to the 737 as it taxied past.
gallois wrote:
So you are flying OCAS and your route will take you across an ATZ in class G manned by a FISO.
I would never plan to transit through an ATZ en-route unless it was utterly unavoidable.
Just go over the top. Not many airports under the 2,500 LTMA have an elevation such that their ATZ is pressed up against CAS.
skydriller wrote:
ATC sometimes has a habit of making all GA for 50 miles wait for the only CAT of the day
This is common, and the root cause is a commercial consideration.
The Ryanair flight is the lifeblood of the airport and they will do anything to keep it. The last thing they want is Ryanair complaining about the service they’re receiving from the airport.
The airport manager has thus sat down with the ATC team and told them:
“No Ryanair flight experiences any sort of delay here, ever. You move everything else out of their way and don’t take even the slightest chance of a problem arising. Nothing else taxis while they are taxiing, and nothing lands or takes off ahead of them if it creates even the remotest chance of a go-around.
Perversely, it thus makes it harder for GA to operate at such a place (with one or two Ryanairs a day or whatever) while that flight is anywhere near than it is at a place with constant commercial traffic.
I would never plan to transit through an ATZ en-route unless it was utterly unavoidable.
Just go over the top. Not many airports under the 2,500 LTMA have an elevation such that their ATZ is pressed up against CAS.
Sure, but if your txp over-reads by say 200ft then you are likely to get busted. There is zero tolerance. So 100ft into CAS for 10 seconds will get you busted. So a lot of the ATZs below the 2500ft CAS base are not safely over-flyable.
They used to be and we all did that, at say 2400ft, but you can’t fly at 2400ft under 2500ft CAS anymore. Maybe with Farnborough radar, and recording the comms, would be OK.
I now record all comms for all A-B flights. An mp3 recorder is cheap… You have to make your own recording because if the CAA busts you, they get the ATC tape but you cannot get it. So they bust you without offering you evidence which would help your case. Clearly their head of busts never read the book Secret Barrister Among much good stuff it makes the point that the prosecution is supposed to supply evidence to the defendant even if it does not help the prosecution. The CAA avoids this obligation because the fines and punishments they impose are not done through the judicial system.
@Skydriller, but you are talking ATC not FIS and usually the maximum distance would be 30 Nm and not as much as 50nm. Going into Brest LFRB I have often been rerouted or asked if I can keep my speed up because of Ryan Air, Hop or one of the others starting the STAR. However there have also been times when the passenger jet has been told to slow down or orbit for me. But as I say this is all whilst communicating with a controller not being told to “standby” by an information service who either forgets about you or ignores you in the hope that you’ll make a detour whilst they put the kettle on.
Peter wrote:
I would never plan to transit through an ATZ en-route unless it was utterly unavoidable.
Just go over the top. Not many airports under the 2,500 LTMA have an elevation such that their ATZ is pressed up against CAS.
Apologies, I couldnt see the original quote in a quick scan back – this isnt Peter who said this, but not sure who?
Anyway, it doesnt matter, but I would ask generally why?
You could drive a shorter route between A and B, but not take the shorter route because it was a motorway for example, and you dont like motorways. Absolutely fine with me.
However, equally I take the view that the airspace exists for all users, and we dont need to justify why we might wish to go via CAS. Sometimes it may take very little time off the journey, but to give into that argument will only promote the non use of CAS. CAS creates far more danger becasue it encourages aircraft to go around the perimeter creating greater risk of collision. There are times the comfort of a radar service in CAS positively enhances safety. There is an argument that for transit IF there is a need for orbits before onward clearance DUE to traffic volume (as opposed to controller work load) then the orbit should be just inside CAS. There is an argument that it is unacceptable for a controller to be over worked – if he cant cope with the traffic another controller is needed, and the zone split into more than one zone. Non of this of course suits the CAS controller provider, but tuff, CAT has the privilege of some airspace being restricted (CAS is restricted airspace), and with privilege comes responsibility.
