Cobalt wrote:
This debate – and any possible enforcement – is a great example that the system only works if people apply common sense, and that the attempt to spell everything out in detail is a futile exercise – even the massively bloated EASA rulebook is unable to cover every eventuality.The written rules (in Europe) are very simple
there is no flight using any flight level below the TL, which is always at least 1000 ft above the TA
below the TA, pilots should set their ailtimeter to an appropriate QNH and fly using that
A pilot flying below the TA has no idea which flight level he is flying, and the system is designed in a way that this works and is safe.You can now create a theoretical obligation to check you are not vertically infringing an airspace with a floor defined in FL on days with exceptionally low QNH, and start calculating your FL using (remember you only have to have one altimeter), to prevent infringing airspace WHICH ACCORDING TO THE RULES IS EMPTY! Using which value, BTW? Do I now have to carry the ISA tables to get the mb per 1,000 ft which changes from 36mb at 1,000ft to 27.5mb at 10,000ft.
Any sane authority would never pursue a theoretical infringement of empty airspace.
Unfortunately sanity is not something all regulators possess.
Finally someone saying something that makes sense.
hazek wrote:
How can your aircraft be at FL55 and bust the CAS, if FL55 on that given day cannot be flown?
You can always be at FL55 regardless of conditions – you simply set your altimeter to 1013 and climb until it reads 5500. You are then at FL55, and what the TL/TA are that day is immaterial to that simple fact of being at FL55.
Once cruising at FL55, assuming we’re worried about a vertical bust, then you’re busting if the base of the airspace is either:
a) Defined as a flight level less than FL55
b) Defined as an altitude less than 5500 – (27 x (1013 – local QNH))
What you’re actually flying on doesn’t matter, and nor does the TA or the TL. The base of any piece of airspace is defined by either a flight level or an altitude. If the former then you must stay below with 1013 set, if the latter then you must stay below with the local QNH set.
One reason why having two altimeters is very useful.
alioth wrote:
It’s also not true for VFR at least. I’ve never contacted FIS to get a radar clearance, I’ve always directly called the owner of the airspace and so far never been refused a clearance.
My mistake, I read that under
4 ARRANGEMENTS FOR PARTICULAR TYPES OF FLIGHT (NON-STANDARD, NON-DEVIATING, UNUSUAL, ROYAL, OBSERVATION, SPECIAL, VFR ACCESS TO CLASS C AIRSPACE ABOVE FL 195, AND CIVILIAN FORMATION FLIGHTS)and didn’t realize it.
4.1.2.1.2 The FISO will relay these details to the appropriate ATC Unit and, in due course, will advise the pilot whether or not the NSF is approved, together with any special conditions and a contact frequency for the ATC Unit concerned. Pilots should not call for an approval directly on an operational ATC frequency. This is particularly important in the case of frequencies in use by London Terminal Control (Swanwick) or London Area Control (Swanwick).
Graham wrote:
You can always be at FL55 regardless of conditions
No, you cannot be. Because you can’t “you simply set your altimeter to 1013 and” because that is not in accordance to the published regulations. I mean you can do that just like you can drive drunk but you’d be breaking rules.
hazek wrote:
But you can be assured that if I ever fly to the UK I would follow the published rules and if questioned defend my actions accordingly.
AIP are mostly not rules – they are just “publications”, for information.
hazek wrote:
That would be an incorrect application of the published regulations? I was not arguing whether or not your CAA doesn’t apply the published regulations, only that if the regulations are followed in the mentioned scenario that isn’t a bust. But IF you guys are claiming that your authority doesn’t know how to apply the rules then that’s a different problem and I won’t say anything about it because I don’t know what the situation there is.
Just like they bust you when you are inside the CAS for less than the margin of error?
Or when an ATC explicitly tells you to do something and when you question them if I’m going to bust certain CAS, they admit that you might?
That is not news, unfortunately, CAA are wonderful in that sense.
The whole thread is dedicated to this.
hazek wrote:
Graham wrote: You can always be at FL55 regardless of conditionsNo, you cannot be. Because you can’t “you simply set your altimeter to 1013 and” because that is not in accordance to the published regulations. I mean you can do that just like you can drive drunk but you’d be breaking rules.
hazek, please also keep in mind that “ATC” is not one entity like in many sane countries; in the UK you might be in AMSL for one ATC operator and in FL for the other.
hazek wrote:
No, you cannot be. Because you can’t “you simply set your altimeter to 1013 and” because that is not in accordance to the published regulations. I mean you can do that just like you can drive drunk but you’d be breaking rules.
This guy… it’s like talking to a wall.
He still doesn’t understand what a flight level is.
Alpha_Floor wrote:
This guy… it’s like talking to a wall.He still doesn’t understand what a flight level is.
Will you respond or not?:
hazek wrote:
Airborne_Again wrote:
…AIP UK ENR 1.7 actually does not say so – it is your interpretation.
5.1.4 Within Controlled Airspace a pilot should set one altimeter to the latest Aerodrome QNH prior to take-off. While flying at, or below, the Transition Altitude vertical position will be expressed in terms of altitude based upon the Aerodrome QNH. When cleared for climb to a Flight Level, vertical position will be expressed in terms of Flight Level, unless intermediate altitude reports have been specifically requested by Air Traffic Control.
5.2.1 Within Controlled Airspace
5.2.1.1 At and above the transition level and during en-route flight the aircraft should be flown at Flight Levels. The latest and most appropriate Regional Pressure Setting value is to be used for checking terrain clearance in flight. Aircraft flying in a Control Zone or TMA at an Altitude at or below the Transition Altitude will be given the appropriate QNH setting in their clearance to enter the Zone/TMA.Ok, so how do you interpret this then?
There is nothing to “interpret”. It is just an attempt to write down a description of current procedures.
I am amazed they talk about the RPS with a straight face!
arj1 wrote:
AIP are mostly not rules – they are just “publications”, for information.
https://skybrary.aero/articles/aeronautical-information-publications-aips
I mean you I can also go quote Annex 15 if you really want but you can read the relevant summary at the above link. The AIP is THE publication pilots are supposed to read in order to know how to abide by the air regulations of a given country. If you the AIP is just guidance for information for you, where do you read the air regulations from so that you know you abide by them?
