Mooney_Driver wrote:
As a general remark, this maybe shows why the system of variable TA/TL used in Europe sometimes has questionable benefits as compared to the system used in the US, where the TA/TL is a fixed number for the whole country. Changing TA in function of airspace availability takes this concept even further than I’ve ever seen elsewhere… maybe there is room for improvement here.
No doubt a structure that was put in place to be workable globally with the technology available at the time. And it’s starting to show. I too would welcome some modernization, especially in terms of traffic avoidance. I mean it’s not like we’d need to reinvent the wheel, just look at what the US has done and copy the best parts.
hazek wrote:
So yes, here indeed if you are not careful, and you stray outside of the Leeds Bradford CTA 3 into the Yorkshire CTA 1 or 2 you could bust that CAS. But there is no dilemma whether or not you would or what the limits are. In fact they even published Yorkshire CTA 1 as 4500ft lower limit just so that you know exactly where you are if you leave Leeds Bradford towards it.
It’s been perfectly clear to most of us for a long time. But it’s not what you’ve been saying back a few pages!
hazek wrote:
What trap?The transition layer is always required to be min 1000’. Therefore you cannot be at FL55 if you have not passed the published transition altitude. If you pass the transition altitude you should set your altimeter to 1013 and then ensure your flown flight level is appropriate. Don’t forget that the transition level is not fixed and changes as air pressure changes. If FL55 would “eat into” the transition layer’s min 1000’ then FL55 would not be available and cannot be flown. A higher flight level would be the transition level. As long as you maintain an appropriate altitude with a correct setting in your altimeter you can’t bust any CAS limits.
I don’t understand what the issue is.
dublinpilot wrote:
But it’s not what you’ve been saying back a few pages!
It’s exactly what I said. How do you see a contradiction? If you stray the problem is not how the boundary is published or how to determine your vertical position, it’s that you strayed. If you exit Leeds Bradford CTA 3 than obviously the transition altitude is back to 3000ft and again my comment is correct. So don’t exit or if you do exit make sure you follow the new TA and stay below the Class A. In this particular case if you are at or below 3000ft altitude you cannot be inside either Yorkshire CTA 1 or 2.
Do the CAA take into account ADSB with infringements?
Thinking a Skyecho might be a usefull addition to the Mode A transponder in my PA28
Just raise the TA to 18,000 feet everywhere, way above any terminal area airspace, and the issue is gone
C’mon @Silvaire, you gotta be kidding, we can’t do that, period.
Way too easy as in: no NAA would be able to still pull the carpet in it’s own interests, no giving up on genuine national pride such we’ve always driven on the left side and still drive on the left and we are proud about it, the we gotta feed those poor EASA reps sitting uptight in Brussels and elsewhere doing sooo much for aviation’s safety, we have invented aviation as a whole and please don’t tell us, we love to complicate things as it keeps everyone busy (aka a scarecrow named “jobs”), we love to spend our hard earned monies on dubious systems, many more grounds, and last but not least, we sure don’t take any lesson from those European expats calling themselves Americans 
What a mess!
Do the CAA take into account ADSB with infringements?
How could they?
Re personal attacks etc I was talking about the AIP text and it is BS. The AIP is not a place for educating pilots on how to fly. It is a legal organ for promulgating airspace and other data. Because nobody can read most of the AIP, some of this data is then also published in the form of charts; mostly VFR charts.
It may be that the FL based airspace was a cockup if the TA is also published as sitting above that. Well, the CAA do periodically cock up. They read this thread daily, on weekdays. So they will probably not have a little internal look at this. But it doesn’t mean anything really.
I had a look to see how it is supposed to work in France. For sure the TA doesn’t appear on any charts I’ve ever seen. It is part of the AIP for airports, but that isn’t much help if you’re not overhead an airport.
Gallois said the TA is 3000 except when it isn’t. But I found what seems to be an official French document (in English!) which says that it is at least 5000. Also, France imposes a 1000 foot buffer between the Transition ALTITUDE and the Transition LEVEL, so you’ve really got to be not paying attention for there to be any ambiguity. You’re not supposed to conduct level flight in the buffer zone, though no instructor has ever mentioned this to me and I’m pretty sure I have, while talking to Info who said nothing about it.
Extract from official document below:
The altimeter setting procedures applied in France include:
Transition Altitude (TA) set for each TMA and published on the IAC charts of aerodromes within the TMA as well as those of aerodromes below the TMA when the minimum holding altitude is above the minimum altitude of the TMA. In France, the TA is usually 5000 ft
Transition Level (TRL) determined by the approach controller according to the atmospheric pressure measurements (QNH) performed by the aerodrome weather station. This is the first IFR flight level at least 1000 ft above transition altitude
Transition layer (airspace between the transition altitude and the transition level) of a thickness strictly greater than 1000 ft
Local QNH setting (rounded down to the nearest integer hPa) below the transition altitude (TA) or, outside the terminal control regions, below 3000 ft AGL – Altitude setting
Standard setting (1013,2 hPa) above transition level (TRL) – Flight level setting
In the transition layer (between the TA and the TRL) no level flight, standard setting during climb and local QNH setting during descent
Peter wrote:
The AIP is not a place for educating pilots on how to fly. It is a legal organ for promulgating airspace and other data.
Actually, it not always a legal organ – AIP in general is mandatory to comply only if it is notified airspace, otherwise it is just Aeronotical Information Publication.
What a mess…
Yes.
Different countries have different legal systems. In the UK, due diligence is a valid general defence, which is why the CAA prefers to use bullying and FUD – because it doesn’t create unwelcome case law.
I would also think that the actual topic of this thread is really a UK thing rather than any other European country. Clearly, airspace infringements are a problem everywhere, but how they are being dealt with appears to be different in the UK than elsewhere. This is pretty much what this thread is all about rather than the technicality of the airspace structure, nonwithstanding that some of the airspaces in the UK are quite complex.
Well, partly, but consider:
I don’t know who Hazek is but from my 23 years in this business the only people who have that specific knowledge are people deep inside ATC, CAA, or other bodies, sometimes in the capacity of a consultant to a CAA. Fair enough, but one would get more credibility by declaring that than by pretending to be a novice PPL.
johnh wrote:
Also, France imposes a 1000 foot buffer between the Transition ALTITUDE and the Transition LEVEL, so you’ve really got to be not paying attention for there to be any ambiguity. You’re not supposed to conduct level flight in the buffer zone, though no instructor has ever mentioned this to me and I’m pretty sure I have, while talking to Info who said nothing about it.
Not only France. That is the ICAO standard for Europe since a couple of years, The intention is that vertical separation shall always apply between aircraft flying at the TA and the TL, respectively.
